Valuable information to consider when evaluating the authenticity of a vintage burst

[Zapper]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

Someone just asked me to weigh The Nile replica... So I did. It's exactly 9.0 lbs. Anyone know exactly how much a Jap replica like mine SHOULD weigh? I could always stick some lead in the cavities, or drill them out a bit more if necessary...... :##

 

[El Gringo]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

you shouldn’t be buying dodgy bursts on a whim.
Defo stick to new LP reissues which you can buy new from a store with confidence. Don’t buy anything used as you might end up with a Chinese copy and not know it

you’re looking at your purchase with rose tinted glasses and very wishful thinking. Admit it you f’ked up

I will now add my 2 cents ( adjusted for inflation = 1 cent) I agree 100% that you should stick to Gibson Les Paul reissues including the fine crafted Gibson Custom Shop Les Paul's . You will get a great instrument that will be nothing short of perfection . The best advice I can give to protect your self and your funds is to purchase ONLY from reputable Gibson Authentic and Authorized shops , who will offer the Gibson WARRANTY, including Factory Authorized Service . I have seen too many folks spend there treasure on shops that claim to sell and offer X Y and Z and then forbid you have a issue and said scab shop shrugs and you are left out in the cold and unprotected and maybe stuck with a hefty repair bill to make said instrument properly play and believe me it happens and there are plenty of people that gladly take your hard earned money and then turn there nose up at you at the first sign of something not right . Don't let that happen to you and only BUY from Reputable and Authentic and Authorized shops ! Take it from me Don't get ripped off !!!!!!!!!!

 

[Zapper]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

I will now add my 2 cents ( adjusted for inflation = 1 cent) I agree 100% that you should stick to Gibson Les Paul reissues including the fine crafted Gibson Custom Shop Les Paul's . You will get a great instrument that will be nothing short of perfection . The best advice I can give to protect your self and your funds is to purchase ONLY from reputable Gibson Authentic and Authorized shops , who will offer the Gibson WARRANTY, including Factory Authorized Service . I have seen too many folks spend there treasure on shops that claim to sell and offer X Y and Z and then forbid you have a issue and said scab shop shrugs and you are left out in the cold and unprotected and maybe stuck with a hefty repair bill to make said instrument properly play and believe me it happens and there are plenty of people that gladly take your hard earned money and then turn there nose up at you at the first sign of something not right . Don't let that happen to you and only BUY from Reputable and Authentic and Authorized shops ! Take it from me Don't get ripped off !!!!!!!!!!

Gringo, I agree 100% in general. On this occasion though I bought from a private collector, a friend of trusted friend, who owns nearly 1000 rare & vintage guitars. Some of you may have seen his website. He's a very wealthy (and nice) man with absolutely no reason to try & make a quick buck/quid out of a gullible punter like me. So I'm pretty confident it's an original 1960 LP, albeit significantly 'worked on'. Once this virus panic has subsided, hopefully I'll find out for sure. No reply from Gary yet incidentally...

 

[deytookerjaabs]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

Thanks for that deytripper..! Yes, I think you're right. The DMs are slightly wider than PAFs so looks like the original '70s owner installed MIJ surrounds to accommodate them. Just a shame he also hacked away at the cavity (maybe he was trying to fake a chew LOL..!). Apparently it used to have DMs at both the bridge and neck (presumably SD and DM PAF respectively) but looks like he reverted back to a T Top at the neck and then maybe returned the original surrounds.

As it happens I spoke with the vendor today who confirmed that it was indeed his uncle (a pro musician in Holland) who had the DMs installed in the '70s, like many other players (including me on my trusty Columbus LP!) Unfortunately he's struggling to find any photos of the guitar at that time but has now asked other family members to look out for some.... Watch this space!

Smart move of him to keep those old cream m69's around after chucking the PAF's.


This enlarging the cavity thing is a new one for me, crazy kids and what they get up to, permission to dub it the "BBC Mod?"

 

[Ted Nugent]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

Gringo, I agree 100% in general. On this occasion though I bought from a private collector, a friend of trusted friend, who owns nearly 1000 rare & vintage guitars. Some of you may have seen his website. He's a very wealthy (and nice) man with absolutely no reason to try & make a quick buck/quid out of a gullible punter like me. So I'm pretty confident it's an original 1960 LP, albeit significantly 'worked on'. Once this virus panic has subsided, hopefully I'll find out for sure. No reply from Gary yet incidentally...

With all due respect to your very wealthy (and nice) man who owns nearly 1000 rare & vintage guitars, but how many 1958-1960 Les Paul’s has he bought/sold/traded? What are his burst credentials?

I somehow suspect that Gary doesn’t want to get involved. Especially when the threat of being sued for libel and defamation has already been mentioned.

 

[MeHereNow]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

A dutch uncle which he had the guitar from?
Was his uncle the late Cees Tol formerly in dutch hitmachine "BZN"?

 

[marshall1987]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

Okay folks...once and for all, need to shut down the OP's deceptive and unfounded threats of libel and defamation.

I can only speak for the laws in the U.S.

PROVING LIBEL

"There are several things a person must prove to establish that libel has taken place. In the United States, a person must prove that the statement was false, caused harm, and was made without adequate research into the truthfulness of the statement. These steps are for an ordinary citizen. For a celebrity or public official, a person must prove the first three steps, and that the statement was made with the intent to do harm or with reckless disregard for the truth, which is usually specifically referred to as "actual malice".

 

[mipstoo]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

A dutch uncle which he had the guitar from?
Was his uncle the late Cees Tol formerly in dutch hitmachine "BZN"?

Nope. Different guitar. That was a darker burst without reflector knobs. Definitely not a tomatoes soup burst.

Probably an indo-rock player... But let's wait for pictures...

 

[JJ Blair]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

Smart move of him to keep those old cream m69's around after chucking the PAF's.


This enlarging the cavity thing is a new one for me, crazy kids and what they get up to, permission to dub it the "BBC Mod?"

Oh, man. I was so distracted by the five other incorrect things in the neck cavity, I missed the pic showing the scar from the original rings. I have always suspected that the rings here are OTP, which shoe polish, or some other crap in it. You can see how something has been brushed on to age it. A very amateurish job. $20 they don't blacklight properly.

 

[JJ Blair]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

truss rod routes from a Burny 'standard' and a Burny 'custom'

Game. Set. Match.

Same shape. Same little plate behind the nut. And those rings scars?

I am convinced now that this is the world's most expensive Burny.

 

[JJ Blair]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

Tom, please send the truss rod pics to Terry as well as the Burny pics and ask him if he still stands by his assessment.

 

[Ted Nugent]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

So did the Dutch uncle own two of these guitars? A 1958 and a 1960?

 

[Tom Wittrock]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

Tom, it's my understanding that Terry's a luthier, not a dealer or authenticator. Do I have that incorrect? If so, then I'll take it back, ...

Tom, please send the truss rod pics to Terry as well as the Burny pics and ask him if he still stands by his assessment.

Why would you ask me to do that, when so far you appear to think he is not a Burst expert.
Or was this just another dig at me, like some others here. :ganz

But if you haven't figured it out already [and you easily could have], he is reading this thread and sees the same images we all do in this thread. So, there is no need for me to send him anything. So far, I haven't sent Terry any info on this thread. He contacted me.

 

[Rev.WillieVK]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

Spelling and pronunciation are important.

Is it THE NILE - or is it DE-NIAL?

:hmm

 

[Garethjohn]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

Hi its Gareth here, Ian have you admitted that it is a fake and I made it in my shed last year with nothing but a Dremel.... :##

 

[JJ Blair]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

Why would you ask me to do that, when so far you appear to think he is not a Burst expert.
Or was this just another dig at me, like some others here. :ganz

But if you haven't figured it out already [and you easily could have], he is reading this thread and sees the same images we all do in this thread. So, there is no need for me to send him anything. So far, I haven't sent Terry any info on this thread. He contacted me.

No. Not a dig at you. An honest request. And you corrected me on the expert thing. But if he's reading this, I'd love for him to chime in again. It seems like the entire validation of this guitar is based on his idea that somebody reworked a Gibson, and he got you to change your mind that this was not a fake. Until then, there was unanimous consent. But now, Zapper is using Terry's proclamation and your agreeing with him as his only evidence of it being real. I would hope you've looked at all the solid evidence I've put up against it.

Just for posterity, I'm going to list my issues:

These ones addressed by the idea that it was "reworked" - Wrong headstock shape, wrong logo, wrong headstock finish, wrong nut, wrong back finish, wrong serial number, wrong cavity.

Still not addressed - Truss rod cavity that looks identical to a Burny, wrong neck tenon, wrong pickup cavity, dyed Indian rosewood fretboard, incorrect binding on the neck, scars from original MIJ rings that were replaced by likely OTP rings, that have brushed dye stains on them, spacing of knobs, compressed air checking, wrong pick guard.

So Tom, please think about all those things, and ask yourself if this is more likely a reworked Burst, or a Burny that got reworked. I think your original instinct was correct, and Terry talked you out of it. I hope he looks at my evidence and reconsiders.

BTW, Zapper, do you have a blacklight? Wanna blacklight those M69s for us? Also, care to show us pics of the rolled plastic open the back of the pickguard or the backplates?

 

[Zapper]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

With all due respect to your very wealthy (and nice) man who owns nearly 1000 rare & vintage guitars, but how many 1958-1960 Les Paul’s has he bought/sold/traded? What are his burst credentials?

I somehow suspect that Gary doesn’t want to get involved. Especially when the threat of being sued for libel and defamation has already been mentioned.

Ted, I have no idea how many Bursts he has owned or traded.... I'm not that nosey..! In any event, he INHERITED the guitar from his uncle.

And the only person I would have sued is the previous owner, with hopefully Gary as an expert witness, but it now looks like that won't be necessary...

 

[JJ Blair]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

So did the Dutch uncle own two of these guitars? A 1958 and a 1960?

Is this the Tielman Brothers guitar? Which one: The Gold Top or the Custom?

 

[Zapper]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

Hi its Gareth here, Ian have you admitted that it is a fake and I made it in my shed last year with nothing but a Dremel.... :##

Oops... sorry guys, there I go talking to myself again...! :rofl

Yes Gareth, I've now come clean that it's a fake, although I've told them it's Japanese.... Cunning eh?!

 

[JJ Blair]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

Expert witnesses? True story:

Ganzler was bragging about being the expert witness in a case about a 1960 blue sparkle Strat, saying how he testified that it was a fake finish.

Me: "Joe, I know that guitar. Did you see the pictures of the original owner holding it on Christmas day under the tree? Or the pics of him playing it with his band, with that finish?"

Joe: "No."

Me: "Yeah, you fucked up."