original Burst vs Historic ... Sorry, but...

[Tommy Lee]

Nobody who throws out big bucks for an original is gonna say they don't sound better, because noone want to think they wasted a BUNCH of bread. Anyone who has owned one for a long time will not go there either, they are emotionally attached. This is human nature. It don't matter to me one way or the other, I only acheive to get MY rocks off.

 

[Joey]

old vs. new

I Think any guitar is going to sound better if you put in PAF's. There is something about that warm tone that just does it. For me there is no better combination of wood than maple over mahogany. I do believe that the wood has alot to do with why an original burst does and sounds like it does. I talked with Tom Murphy on this matter and he thinks it's all about the wood. He was telling me about a 59 burst with a beautiful top that had the headstock cracked off it and the person paid 45,000.00 for it. He had it renecked and I ended up selling this guy a 60 burst so I got to discuss it with him directly. He sent me photos of the guitar and had it renecked. He say's it sounds and plays unbelievable. It's the wood. I have had PAF's that were dogs so there are good and bad when it comes to them. Granted that if you get a couple of good one's and put the in some old wood that combination just can't be beat. I own 14 Paf's right now and they all sound different. I seem to lean tward a mid to high 7 instead of the 8 and above. The PAF's that have 8 or higher for a reading feedback a little to much for my liking. It has to do with tone not volume. Most people get confused over this and if you put both pickups in the same spot in the same guitar(swithcing one for another) I gaurentee you will choose the mid 7 over the 8 any day of the week. It really is so personal when it comes down to it. If it's your guitar then it has to make only you happy. What one guy likes may be the opposite of what another guy likes. I have changed over all of the parts on one of my reissues to all vintage parts and it does make a difference. As far as #001 goes I can't change anything on it because to me it is what it is and should be left alone. I believe that guitar is a part of Gibson history as it is the first guitar ever aged by Gibson. I want to put a couple of PAF's in it but can't bring myself to breaking a solder joint. Maybe that's crazy because it is'nt an original burst but it is how I feel. When I was looking for my original burst the most important thing to me was that I didn't have to say BUT after I say I own an original burst. NO STORY GUITAR. The way it played and sounded was of course a factor because I play but I was fortunate enough to find one that has never had a solder joint broke and in near mint condition. I would love for it to have an outragious top on it - I would be a liar if I said different but I opted to go with one that has mild flame and no stories. Again it's so personal. I have been collecting vintage parts for quite some time now and believe me If you can get your hands on them, just buy them. They will make your guitar sound better. I know they are getting expensive but there is a saying in the buisness - TIME HEALS ALL WOUNDS - If you pay high for anything in great shape and vintage it's only a matter of time before your hearing "Boy you stole that"

 

[60burst]

Joey, makes some good points, as did Ramrod. I agree with 99% of what they said. Ed is obviously grumpy today so we will just ignor him. Tommy, there is truth to what you say but I think I am an exception. I don't have an ax to grind one way or another. I know what I like and what is magical for me so that is how I make my decisions on buying guitars.
Tell us about your guitar, Joey? I always like to hear about an old burst. Posting a picture is even better........:dude :60burst

 

[Tommy Lee]

Good deal. It keeps coming back to wood and PAFS.

 

[TxMack]

I think the mayor makes a helluva point here .

It's amazing the differences we detect while we are playing
and how they affect our (at least my) performance at the time .

Then come back to the recording two weeks later and you can't
discern which track it was you didn't like the tone on or why .

 

[Dewey]

Joey, interesting point you make based on your opinion. I've owned a few paf's myself, and the ones that are in my '99 are 7.89k in the neck and 7.67k in the bridge. And to me they sound great where they're at. It seems to be getting to the point where the color of the bobbins and the readings are secondary also. What really matters is what your ears tell you! Paf's will always stir controversy, readings, color, price, availability etc. I still enjoy reading about it though. The historic/burst controversy is also a great topic. What would be the best though, is if we could get most of us together with our guitars, meet in a general location and for a weekend go at it! Real burst's, historic/paf guitars, various other combinations with different set-ups and amps, and let each persons ears sort this thing out once and for all.....never happen, so the debate moves forward.

....well, at least Ed and 60burst are going to make a go at it! Should make for some interesting forum reading :dew

 

[lpnv59]

been there! done that!

I won't argue that a magic original isn't magic, but out of the twenty odd real ones, I've played only 2 were magic to me. One of those magic ones I owned for 23 years, bought it in 77' and it was pretty much the only guitar I could play for many years. Even though it was a very warm and complex sounding instrument, I stopped gigging with it regularly when I felt it became too valuable($7000.00), boy have things changed. The sound was not worth the worry&risk for touring and by the late 80's, Gibson Les Pauls were improved enough so that if you put in a PAF or 2, the sound was close enough in a live situation at the very least. In the studio, by the time it gets to tape I don't think you could tell the difference on a good day. No, I'll amend that to, I don't think you could say which one was better. That being said, there was still something lacking in Les Pauls as far as vibe and feel until 1999 when they made all those appointment changes. As far as sound they haven't truly nailed it with a stock instrument but the vibe and feel in SOME cases, comes real close. With the mods as suggested on this forum, it can all come together for a "magic" instrument IMO. I had been doing side by side comparisons with historics and originals against my real 59', up until the time I sold it. Until I got my 99' I could not bear to part with it . Since they came out with the historic burst, I've played a few that are about as good a Les Paul as you could get, ever. Would I pay 30 grand+ for an original LP to play, yes if all I could get was of prehistoric quality. These days, forget it! The difference between a magic original and a magic historic is just too negligable to rationalize the difference in cost. Besides, I'm having way too much fun with the money I made on the sale of my old one.

 

[Dave Paetow]

I'm in a position where I am fortunate enough to compare old vs. new. Let me tell you there are a hell of a lot of variables, old and new. Let's face it, there is a lot of tonal difference between Historics, some are so-so, some are OK, some are great. I'd drag along the '59 just to a/b when looking for a new Historic. Usually one out of every batch that came in at Dave R's sounded darn close to the oldie.

I don't think it is fair to dismiss the Historics because they are not exactly the same as an old burst. I'd love to have a beautiful, real, un-boogered, no-story Burst, but where the hell am I going to get $50-$80K and up to buy one? The Historics fill that void, if you look around, you can find some killer SOUNDING examples that won't force you to remortgage the house. The flame has always been secondary to me, flame doesn't mean shit to me if the guitar sounds mediocre.

Listen to some of Ed A's stuff, it sounds better than stuff that guys used real bursts on. Ultimately, it comes down to your chops and touch.

 

[Ed Rafalko]

I AM NOT GRUMPY!!!!!!isd :*#$% isd :*#$% isd :*#$%

 

[Dave Paetow]

How about happiness deficient?

 

[60burst]

I thought I was particular? 2 out of 20plus originals is all you thought had magic? Yikes!!!! I don't agree with that at all. No way. A guy that is not happy with an original LP isn't going to be happy with a Historic. The best Historic I have seen was still a good ways from an original, IMO. Good guitars, yes.
2 out of 20? I can't get over that.....It makes no sense at all......
(no offense. just an opinion ):60burst

 

[60burst]

F**k no . He's just plain grumpy. Period.... :60burst

 

[Ed Rafalko]

I'm not unhappy either.
Have you deciede what you're going to do yet or are you still thinking about it?

 

[toni]

This topic is so fun, so subjective, really.

On one side,

some guys with old Bursts say "nothing comes close to an old Burst". Some are emotionally attached to their old guitar and it is great. ...and some others could not believe that a Historic Burst (4000$) with good pickups may be as good as an old 75000$ "Superior" Burst. It may or could be true. And for some others the only REAL THING is an old burst, as if historics were not as REAL and were only Wannabe. This is a sad point of view. The second Burst that was made was a copy of the first one. Do we call it a copy ? NO !

On the other side,

some guys with new Bursts say "Historic Burst are as good as old Burst". Some are emotionnally attached to their guitar and it is great....and for sure these guys want their guitar to be as good as
an old Burst. Surely different, but great, not copies.

But in the end, there is so many different flavors to get out of any of these guitars. Some people like PAF sound, some prefer a ballsier sound...more distortion...single coils, tripple etc...What is right and what is wrong ? It only depends on WHO gives the answer.I think that the sound of an old PAF is really difficult to reproduce...and so what ! We just have to find great pickups that sound different.

If I had the money, I would love to own an old Burst, but fot what it is, a part of Rock Guitar history. I've played some old Bursts and I had fun.
I play my "inferior" 1999 Burst and i have an equal fun.
Changed the pickups and it sings. It may be "inferior" to some, but i have perfect pitch, very very good ears and I can find my own preferences by myself.

The best guitar for you may not be the best for me, IS IT POSSIBLE ?
..and if you like your guitar, may it be inferior or superior to some, you'll be a better player and THEN it will be the greatest guitar.
AND NEVER FORGET THAT THE MAGIC TONES THAT STARTED IT ALL CAME FROM THE GUYS BEHIND THE NECKS.
I just love my 1999 Burst because it is part of My history and because it is My sound. It mean something special to me. I,ve worked hard to get it, it's mine, it's very lightweight, it plays wonderfully, and it is the nicest flame i've ever seen !

Toni

 

[Ed Rafalko]

I prefer my current Y2K to any Les Paul I've ever played with one exception- my '58 goldtop. There's almost TWO exceptions, but my Korina junior isn't in the same class as my Y2K- not inferior by any means, it's a serious world-class instrument in every way. It's just different.
I have put a price on my Y2K now- $25,000.00 US, and the price is ROCK SOLID FIRM, I'm not budging an inch on it. Call me crazy for putting too high a price on it, but I'm quite attached to the instrument and if you want it you will pay my price. I'm not exactly a motivated seller. IF you know what I mean.
Oh, and the Korina Junior I've ALSO put a price on- $25,000.00 US , ROCK SOLID FIRM. I like that one too.


Seriously, these guitars aren't for sale unless you want to pay me my price for them. Like i said, I'm not a motivated seller right now.

 

[60burst]

I'm not unhappy either.
Have you deciede what you're going to do yet or are you still thinking about it? [/QUOTE

Who are you talking to????

 

[Ed Rafalko]

Dave, of course!
Last I heard he was unemployed .

 

[sparkletop]

Toni

"ditto"

 

[Dave Paetow]

Still am!

 

[Dewey]

...AHHhhh...feel the love :bonk