Long Tenon vs Short Tenon?

[Cheburashka]

Be carefull! Whenever one dives into the `anti-historic` pond the thread eventually gets snuffed! Corporate-sponsored censorship? I wonder.

Btw, I agree! Old wood, hide glue, long tenons. Hogwash.

Nah, people just get inflamed about trivial aspects of their guitar's construction. You know, if you look at what's happening in the bass guitar world, it's pretty crazy: Companies like Conklin have overcome the engineering and playability issues of building 9 string 36 fret neck-through variable scale-length basses (string tension!), meanwhile we're still freaking out if our guitar's binding isn't the same thickness all the way around the top of the body.

 

[ashbass]

Ashbass; as far as my `hogwash` statement... personally I just don`t buy into the `can`t beat a `59 LP` opinions that are often written here. What`s to back up? I have tone opinions...and so do others.

Saying "personally I just don`t buy into the `can`t beat a `59 LP` opinions that are often written here" and "Old wood, hide glue, long tenons. Hogwash" are two different things.

Personal opinions when stated as such are what this place is about. If you don't see the difference in presentation of your ideas in the two bits above then oh well.

 

[Armitage]

But if Hamer can cut a neck joint that is so snug you can lift the guitar by the neck and shake it without the glue, why can't Gibson? That photo is mind numbing.

 

[V!N]

You want the tenon ? You can't handle the tenon ! :dude

http://www.instituteofnoise.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19867

 

[Duckmeister]

Well here is the bottom end of long and short tenon...


Want a Gibson and don't care about short and long stuff get a standard or a classic

Want a Gibson guitar that is close to the 50s LP you fell in love with on the Beano album...go Historic

Want a Gibson guitar that is close to the 50s LP you fell in love with on the Beano album but you can't afford a Gibson at all...

GO JAPANESE

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7366159579&rd=1&sspagename=STRK:MEWN:IT&rd=1

:dude

 

[Cheburashka]

But if Hamer can cut a neck joint that is so snug you can lift the guitar by the neck and shake it without the glue, why can't Gibson? That photo is mind numbing.

Is that mind-numbing photo even of a Gibson? There's no way to tell.

 

[lefty64]

First welcome to the forum KRZLP...don't run off cause of the banter your thread caused, as you can tell, its a touchy subject, and people on this forum are very opinionated and don't pull their punches. With that said, most are extremely knowledgeable and like to share their opinions. This forum kicks ass and Les Pauls kick ass, regardless of their tenon. I do think there is some general truth to the fact that the longer tenon may add slightly to sustain, it makes sense. But there are so many factors that go into a well resonating and a guitar that sounds "alive". The wood, the pickups, pots, etc.. I just have a regular Standard, but oh what a Standard. It is very loud and resonant played unamplified, clear and sustains for days plugged in. I would not go for the you need a historic cause they are better line. I can pull off all those classic tones that I love with my Standard. I'm not anti historic either, I will have one someday, but will NEVER part with my Standard cause its just incredible. I will add that I think Gibson has been building some killer instruments over the last few years and I would think you would have a better chance of getting a winner by picking from recent vintage. I had a 91 Custom that was lame compared to my Standard. I think the recent Standards have a more vintage look and feel to them as well and it sounds like that what you want.

 

[rays44]

You want the tenon ? You can't handle the tenon ! :dude

http://www.instituteofnoise.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19867

Positively stunning :bug :salude

 

[55Custom]

A good LP Standard can do what a Historic can do. It's just harder to find them, depending on what you're listening for. Also, Standards offer the traditional neck sizes and flametops at a resonable price.
What's interesting about Historics, is that despite the talk of how good they are, there's a ton of them that end up right back on the market.

 

[bluespckr]

First welcome to the forum KRZLP...don't run off cause of the banter your thread caused, as you can tell, its a touchy subject, and people on this forum are very opinionated and don't pull their punches. With that said, most are extremely knowledgeable and like to share their opinions. This forum kicks ass and Les Pauls kick ass, regardless of their tenon. I do think there is some general truth to the fact that the longer tenon may add slightly to sustain, it makes sense. But there are so many factors that go into a well resonating and a guitar that sounds "alive". The wood, the pickups, pots, etc.. I just have a regular Standard, but oh what a Standard. It is very loud and resonant played unamplified, clear and sustains for days plugged in. I would not go for the you need a historic cause they are better line. I can pull off all those classic tones that I love with my Standard. I'm not anti historic either, I will have one someday, but will NEVER part with my Standard cause its just incredible. I will add that I think Gibson has been building some killer instruments over the last few years and I would think you would have a better chance of getting a winner by picking from recent vintage. I had a 91 Custom that was lame compared to my Standard. I think the recent Standards have a more vintage look and feel to them as well and it sounds like that what you want.

Well said, Lefty -- all of it. My Standard and yours must be related :jim .

 

[LDB2]

After perusing this thread,I am still confused. Is my Les Paul Standard less of a guitar because of the tenon? Gee,I'd hate for that to be true since I've owned it for 27 years.

 

[Cheburashka]

Positively stunning :bug :salude

Do you think that he's maybe compensating for a shortness somewhere else?

 

[C-4]

It comes down to the personal choice for each of us, along with the other explanations above concerning wood, neck fit, pickups, how it was put together, et.al.

I have tried many production LP's and owned quite a few over the years. Very few of them have done it for me when compared to the Historics I've played and own.

The statement that a shorter tenon can sound compressed is exactly what my production Studio sounds like compared to my R9, which seems far more alive. Obviously, there are many possible reasons for this happening. I do believe that any production LP can sound as fine as a Historic, depending on who likes it's tone, etc.

As to the statement that Hamer can make an extremely tight fitting tenon: I had some Gibson LP's built in Kalamazoo and upon visiting the custom shop on Parsons Street there, saw how tightly and exact these were built. The same as with the Hamers mentioned above.

I also remember the problems the production line in Nashville was having using glue to hold in a loose fitting neck that was sloppily fitted to a body, in the 80's. This was a problem that kept arising at that time. A music store I frequented back then had many problems with LP's arise from this.

There is a difference in how they are made and all of that is not just speculation.
Be that as it may, while the newer production LP's are definitely fine guitars, I'll still take a Historic for the way it feels to me when holding it. I got used to playing LP's when they were made in the 50's and the production models since being re-introduced in late 1968-1969 just don't do it for me personally. I still don't see why the early reissued 1969 LP's get so much attention. They're not even close to what the originals were, IMHO. But, it's all what you get used to playing and feeling.

 

[DopeyJake]

I'm calling BS on this. A short tenon and a long tenon are identical functionally. Using an esoteric expression like "musical" to describe an extra inch of wood is the ultimate in pseudo-scientific cork sniffing.

How does a long tenon allow for better control of the feel and tone of notes? This is a property of the player's fingers and ears.

How can sustain be cut off on different parts of the neck by the shorter tenon? This is probably more an issue of a badly set up guitar, needing a truss rod adjustment or fret work.

How does the tenon affect frequency cutoff? A Stradivarius has a super short tenon, yet somehow manages to lay claim to the best "tone" in the violin world.


How does a short tenon make notes sound flat and compressed? It sounds more like an issue of dead strings. Seriously.

I agree. It's all BS. Stories made up to justify the expensive guitar they purchased and to keep separation from those lowly short tennon guitars.

Another example of this would be those AVHs claiming the old wood sounds better. It's a justification to help them keep their guitar expensive.

My suggestion would be to get the guitar that sounds/plays/looks best for you withing your guitar budget.

 

[Lardvader]

I wouldn't immediately think that length matters (although my missus might disagree) But surely the fit is the important thing here, short or long tenon if it's a bad fit it might have an adverse effect.

You kind of wonder if that example photo is a deliberate attempt by gibson to make the short tenon look bad/worse...?

 

[ashbass]

I agree. It's all BS. Stories made up to justify the expensive guitar they purchased and to keep separation from those lowly short tennon guitars.

Another example of this would be those AVHs claiming the old wood sounds better. It's a justification to help them keep their guitar expensive.

:troll

 

[honk-squawk-wail]

Saying "personally I just don`t buy into the `can`t beat a `59 LP` opinions that are often written here" and "Old wood, hide glue, long tenons. Hogwash" are two different things.

Personal opinions when stated as such are what this place is about. If you don't see the difference in presentation of your ideas in the two bits above then oh well.

No. Exactly the same. `Hogwash` and `I don`t buy in` mean exactly the same thing. It`s all subjectivity. Get it?

 

[BillyBling]

Fanatics.......

 

[JVIoneyman]

I agree. It's all BS. Stories made up to justify the expensive guitar they purchased and to keep separation from those lowly short tennon guitars.

Another example of this would be those AVHs claiming the old wood sounds better. It's a justification to help them keep their guitar expensive.

My suggestion would be to get the guitar that sounds/plays/looks best for you withing your guitar budget.

How can you say that its all BS?
Maybe for some people its the exact opposite, and they are trying to justify their standards, becasue they dont have a historic. Eveything goes both ways.
I can only say what I have learned from my own personally experience. I like the Historics models better then the production models. Now - im only 19 years old, never played a "Burst" and have only been playing les Pauls for about 3 years. I owend a Standard before I even knew what a Historic was and I loved it, but for some reason I was never satified with it. Maybe It was a dog...I cant say. What I can tell you is that I went to Guitar center a year after buying the standard and played a Historic. I was very impressed and started reserching them here at this forum...and eventually purchased an R9. Now im not telling you that the tenon is the only reason that it sounded better to me...but it does add a little something. All the things COMBINED are what makes the Historics what they are. Every little thing adds up, and makes a whole. Now if the historics didnt exist, i would be very happy with the standards, becasue they are great guitars, but I will never let anyone say that my guitar is BS. This is not some justification of the high price, because I played it before I knew what it even was, but its NOT BS, i dont care what anyone says.

 

[Cogswell]

I've had different LPs since the late '70s & one particular Standard for almost ten years (& still own it). They always sounded fine to me & I was happy w/them. In 2002 I bought my first Historic LP & everything changed. I just think they play better & to MY ears they sound better than the production LPs I've owned, with the possible exception of one '69 GT routed for humbuckers, many years gone now.
Do I now snub Stds. or the people that enjoy them? No. Why should I? If YOUR ears tell you they are the same, then that is what you have to work with. Just don't tell me I'm imagining things. I've been playing guitars for over thirty years; I think I have an idea of what sounds good.