les pauls can't be tuned

[Big Al]

This has been an issue for me on all my electric guitars. Short or long scale. The only solution I have found, you dismissed wrongly with a false assumption. Compensated nuts. No, they do nothing about open strings. How can a tuned open string be out of tune?

Compensated nuts work on the intonation to tune the entire fretboard. I use Earvana Drop Shelf nuts and they are proven and really work. Problem solved.

I gotta say, if this issue bugs you so much, why haven't you done some basic research to solve your problem? It wasn't hard for me yaers ago, it's all out there, including a search right here.

 

[igloobob]

No, the OP is 100% right.


If you ever bothered to sit through piano teaching and ear training you can hear the intonation differences in a guitar immediately. The focus/voice of certain guitars can make it stick out even more. We used to discuss this a lot in guitar ensemble, one year I had 6 other dudes and all our guitars though properly intonated per the the 12'th fret had subtle amounts of off-ness.

Yet, compare that to a cello where your finger, not a fret, determines pitch, lol.


Of course, if you play a guitar and you want MIDI level temperament I submit you're being a corny ass mofo (no offense) who doesn't apparently hear the entire history of the instrument.

Get an electric piano, a MIDI guitar, or a wiggle fret guitar. Then you can start a Yanni cover band.

I knew I'd eventually find an actual guitar player! Every guitar is out of tune, but it doesn't bother me nearly as much with a longer scale. I'm just wondering if a compensated nut works well enough to make it worth the cost. I really like les pauls but the decades of playing strats has tuned my ear so that the tuning issues on the lp stick out like a sore thumb. I've heard the earvana nut is good, but I can't wrap my head around it can have any effect of fretted chords, just open chords in the first position.

 

[deytookerjaabs]

Look at it this way...



Segovia...out of tune

Wes....out of tune

Jimi...out of tune



Hell, there are pretty extreme examples too. I dunno, in rock music take "Layla" or "Are You Experienced." More than half the beauty of the guitar is it's haunting sonic nature and the fact that it is so heavily a sonic-first instrument. Think of the piano as the foundation and the guitar adds all the character.

I listened to an interview with a monster fusion-pianist, I think Gary Husband and they asked him about his joy playing it etc and he said "Actually, I really find the piano to be incredibly boring." !!!!!

Be glad!!

 

[igloobob]

Compensated nuts. No, they do nothing about open strings. How can a tuned open string be out of tune?

So the earvana nut works eh? I think I'm going to give that a shot. I've got a les paul style custom guitar that has a "circular fret system" to try to fix the tuning issues and it makes sense theoretically. standard guitars are built as if the strings are at a 90% angle to the frets, but they aren't. Since the spacing is wider at the bridge than at the nut the fretboard and strings don't form a grid, they form part of a circle. The CFS system has radiused frets to match the radius of the strings. It works a lot better than a standard guitar, but that doesn't help me get my les paul in tune.

 

[igloobob]

Segovia...out of tune

​

Segovia was playing a guitar with a 25.5"-26" scale

​

Wes....out of tune

another 25.5" scale

​

Jimi...out of tune

another 25.5" scale.

The problem doesn't bother me very much on a strat, only a les paul. 24.75 scale guitars make the problem worse because a shorter distance has a larger effect on pitch. So if a fret is off by the same amount on a strat and a les paul, the resulting pitch change will be greater on the guitar with a shorter scale. I'm not looking for perfection, since that won't happen on fretted instruments, I just want to minimize it as much as possible

 

[Texas Blues]

Thank God you're here taking the heat off the other three of us commenting in this thread.

And I will gladly do so.

I am so stupid that I know how to tune a Les Paul.

And any other guitar.

You on the other hand.

Are incapable and cannot.

You must be an imbecile.

Impersonating a moron.

In order to infiltrate an international gang of idiots.

 

[deytookerjaabs]

Segovia was playing a guitar with a 25.5"-26" scale[/FONT][/COLOR]


another 25.5" scale

another 25.5" scale.

The problem doesn't bother me very much on a strat, only a les paul. 24.75 scale guitars make the problem worse because a shorter distance has a larger effect on pitch. So if a fret is off by the same amount on a strat and a les paul, the resulting pitch change will be greater on the guitar with a shorter scale. I'm not looking for perfection, since that won't happen on fretted instruments, I just want to minimize it as much as possible​

I get the feeling, completely. You're playing some chord forms live and hearing it wanting to make tweaks on the fly cause one shape is good over here but bad over there etc etc etc. Or, worse, the piano guy is the band leader and his **** is perfect.


As stupid as it sounds, I learned to TRY to shut it off and just dig in cause when you look around other guys are just diggin' in and not over thinking it. I usually tune to an open A with my pinky on that A on the high E string, got it from a Danny Gatton vid (he had PP). In some ways I think the longer scale can have a looser feel/tone, not sure how to explain it and that can maybe be more pleasing to ear fatigue?


I've gone through stages of mucking around altered tuning system compositions and that kinda crap too so it's not foreign to me to listen to atonal-esque stuff. Plus I did a semester of gamelan ensemble, lol. It's just, like I stated above with examples of rock tunes that were beautiful but a good bit off I guess I'm saying there's a certain zen if you can give in and hear the tonality shifts.



Now, if you're scoring stuff for a film and things are noticeably cat calling that's a different story.​

 

[KR1]

This topic gets more written real estate than it should. It’s not so complex.

Shorter-scale instruments with heavier strings will display the temper errors, true. And, the Les Paul has an angular string pull through the nut which tends to trap the string on release - also true. Worse yet, stock/ factory-cut nuts from Gibson are typically high, as I-bob mentions. This sharpens the cowboy chords on the wound strings, in particular.

But....

A proper setup should include a well-carved nut, radius’d saddles, height-adjusted tailpiece for tension and slippage, and a tempered tuning for the player’s style and string gauge.

Beyond this - the strings don’t just get pushed down, they move from side to side on the fret. It’s up to the player to create the level of resonance or dissonance, desired. Strat players who maintain a floating trem know this so well: bend one string against a another and both strings have to move or one’s flat.

That’s about it.

 

[duaneflowers]

A proper setup should include a well-carved nut, radius’d saddles, height-adjusted tailpiece for tension and slippage, and a tempered tuning for the player’s style and string gauge.

Beyond this - the strings don’t just get pushed down, they move from side to side on the fret. It’s up to the player to create the level of resonance or dissonance, desired. Strat players who maintain a floating trem know this so well: bend one string against a another and both strings have to move or one’s flat.

This...

Compensated nuts work on the intonation to tune the entire fretboard. I use Earvana Drop Shelf nuts and they are proven and really work. Problem solved.

This...

And I will gladly do so.

I am so stupid that I know how to tune a Les Paul.

And any other guitar.

You on the other hand.

Are incapable and cannot.

You must be an imbecile.

Impersonating a moron.

In order to infiltrate an international gang of idiots.

And this...

Now that you've been properly indoctrinated, welcome to the forum :salude

 

[renderit]

I only play 1 chord on each of my guitars and switch.

Problem solved.

 

[El Gringo]

Have someone else play your guitar and listen and hear his or her feedback and observations . Something has to be out of whack with the set up and intonation . Are your notes sharp or flat ? Could your pickups be set to high and to much magnetic pull from the pickups ? Bad frets maybe ? Truss rod maybe needs a better adjustment ? Seriously take it to reputable professional luthier /tech and have them go thru your instrument with a fine tooth comb and try to get to the bottom of this . It will be worth it to get to the finish line for a better intonated instrument . Best Wishes , as I know this would drive me nuts . You could also have a bad nut /bridge as well . Best wishes !

 

[El Gringo]

I get the feeling, completely. You're playing some chord forms live and hearing it wanting to make tweaks on the fly cause one shape is good over here but bad over there etc etc etc. Or, worse, the piano guy is the band leader and his **** is perfect.


As stupid as it sounds, I learned to TRY to shut it off and just dig in cause when you look around other guys are just diggin' in and not over thinking it. I usually tune to an open A with my pinky on that A on the high E string, got it from a Danny Gatton vid (he had PP). In some ways I think the longer scale can have a looser feel/tone, not sure how to explain it and that can maybe be more pleasing to ear fatigue?


I've gone through stages of mucking around altered tuning system compositions and that kinda crap too so it's not foreign to me to listen to atonal-esque stuff. Plus I did a semester of gamelan ensemble, lol. It's just, like I stated above with examples of rock tunes that were beautiful but a good bit off I guess I'm saying there's a certain zen if you can give in and hear the tonality shifts.



Now, if you're scoring stuff for a film and things are noticeably cat calling that's a different story.

I just smiled reading that you tune in A . The famous 440 A ? Do you have classical Orchestra training ? Reminds me of my classical training and education and playing in Orchestra and Jazz band a lifetime ago . Do you know how much of a sore thumb an out of tune instrument would sound and be spotted and heard instantly by the conductor or the first chair ? The sound of that 440 A is drilled deep into my head .

 

[deytookerjaabs]

This topic gets more written real estate than it should. It’s not so complex.

Shorter-scale instruments with heavier strings will display the temper errors, true. And, the Les Paul has an angular string pull through the nut which tends to trap the string on release - also true. Worse yet, stock/ factory-cut nuts from Gibson are typically high, as I-bob mentions. This sharpens the cowboy chords on the wound strings, in particular.

But....

A proper setup should include a well-carved nut, radius’d saddles, height-adjusted tailpiece for tension and slippage, and a tempered tuning for the player’s style and string gauge.

Beyond this - the strings don’t just get pushed down, they move from side to side on the fret. It’s up to the player to create the level of resonance or dissonance, desired. Strat players who maintain a floating trem know this so well: bend one string against a another and both strings have to move or one’s flat.

That’s about it.

Not really. You can make things sharp with your hands, much of the board is sharp to begin with no matter what the touch.


No setup will change the fact that your octaves/invervals all over will be out of tune. 3rds, 5ths, not as bad, 4ths hurt but really the octaves are the worse for my ear. But, it's part of how the guitar sounds all at the same time. Compensation behind the first fret won't fix this. If your octave on the A chord and open G chord is perfect? There's no way for the E chord to have true octaves, etc. Something will always have to be out of tune to a degree. How bad you can hear it is an individual thing but it's there.

This is the level of compensation needed to reach proper intonation:

I've played a couple true temperament guitars and they sound like a digital keyboard, no thanks. True temperament isn't perfect anyways so it's striving for perfect imperfection all the same.

But, is is a HUGE deal? No, because it's how the instrument has always sounded!!!

I just smiled reading that you tune in A . The famous 440 A ? Do you have classical Orchestra training ? Reminds me of my classical training and education and playing in Orchestra and Jazz band a lifetime ago . Do you know how much of a sore thumb an out of tune instrument would sound and be spotted and heard instantly by the conductor or the first chair ? The sound of that 440 A is drilled deep into my head .

Well, the A chord, yeah 440 or whatever is relative to the other guys in a group. I never played classical formally, I majored with a contract major in jazz studies and experimental composition (back when you could do that if they like you).

I think tuning to the open A chord with the pinky works nice cause you get a good 5th, good 4th on the D/G strings, a nice M3rd at G/B then you have two consonant octaves in A and E, 4 strings. So, at least that shape rings sorta true like you're "coming home" when you hit it, doesn't fix the rest of the board but to my ear it's the best compensation. I hate tuning the open strings to pitch via tuner cause the octaves don't ring as true.

 

[Tom Wittrock]

If you don't have the problem it just means that you don't have the ears to hear it.

Which has never bothered me, or anyone I have played with. That's why I said you are cursed.

If you can't even hear the notes your guitar is making then why do you even bother playing?

Utter bullshit. I can definitely hear the notes my guitar is making. :bigal

You have proven yourself to be nothing more than a troll. :troll

 

[KR1]

Not really. You can make things sharp with your hands, much of the board is sharp to begin with no matter what the touch.


No setup will change the fact that your octaves/invervals all over will be out of tune. 3rds, 5ths, not as bad, 4ths hurt but really the octaves are the worse for my ear. But, it's part of how the guitar sounds all at the same time. Compensation behind the first fret won't fix this. If your octave on the A chord and open G chord is perfect? There's no way for the E chord to have true octaves, etc. Something will always have to be out of tune to a degree. How bad you can hear it is an individual thing but it's there.

This is the level of compensation needed to reach proper intonation:

I've played a couple true temperament guitars and they sound like a digital keyboard, no thanks. True temperament isn't perfect anyways so it's striving for perfect imperfection all the same.

But, is is a HUGE deal? No, because it's how the instrument has always sounded!!!




Well, the A chord, yeah 440 or whatever is relative to the other guys in a group. I never played classical formally, I majored with a contract major in jazz studies and experimental composition (back when you could do that if they like you).

I think tuning to the open A chord with the pinky works nice cause you get a good 5th, good 4th on the D/G strings, a nice M3rd at G/B then you have two consonant octaves in A and E, 4 strings. So, at least that shape rings sorta true like you're "coming home" when you hit it, doesn't fix the rest of the board but to my ear it's the best compensation. I hate tuning the open strings to pitch via tuner cause the octaves don't ring as true.

Dey,

A tempered tuning (usually with the low E and G slightly flat for most electric guitar work with average-gauge strings) and a proper setup gets one damn close. The rest is up to the player - finger tip placement and pressure. As I typed above, it’s a set of competing imperfections.

Interesting fret work in the photo you provided there. I did some guitar work a very looooong time ago in Maryland with a guy who did work just like that. Unfortunately, he wasn’t trying to do that...lol...

 

[KR1]

......I've played a couple true temperament guitars and they sound like a digital keyboard, no thanks. True temperament isn't perfect anyways so it's striving for perfect imperfection all the same.

But, is is a HUGE deal? No, because it's how the instrument has always sounded!!!.....

Exactly: For experienced players playing properly set up guitars, it’s not a huge deal.

BTW, I knew a guy in Maryland a zillion years ago who did fret work very similar to the example in your photo. The only downside: He wasn’t trying to do that(!). Ha..

 

[AA00475Bassman]

The Myth : As a band playing a tuned guitar was never achieved , Closing our YOUTUBE comments did wonders for our SOUND !!!!

[/IMG]

 

[deytookerjaabs]

Exactly: For experienced players playing properly set up guitars, it’s not a huge deal.

BTW, I knew a guy in Maryland a zillion years ago who did fret work very similar to the example in your photo. The only downside: He wasn’t trying to do that(!). Ha..

What makes it funny is how we adapt so well to an instruments timbre versus it's intonation. I never had a problem until spending all those days in class doing ear training with pianos.

Everyone can hear it, they just don't know it.

Here's proof: Measure the cents any octaves are off on a set of guitar cowboy chords, a little here a little there. Now, if you walk into a guitar center right now you'll see a bunch of digital pianos. Most have a pitch modulation wheel programmed for a whole tone. If you play a C, go an octave higher and play a C and BARELY touch the mod wheel so it's just a few cents off everyone will hear it. Because, a piano isn't supposed to sound that way.

Yet, that's just how the guitar sounds on a any given day. Pedal steel even worse. How about tele guys who sounded killer but never compensated the saddles, how about completely uncompensated classical guitars, how about double string octave instruments like a mandolin or 12 string guitar with different string gauges on the same saddle?? Ever listen to Charlie Daniels play the fiddle?? I could go on...lol

Intent of the user and their familiarity with the thing, that's what it comes down to.

 

[BSeneca]

sounds like you have perfect pitch my friend. it will drive you crazy regardless. as you stated ALL guitars have this. for me its the b string. always sounds out of tune slightly to me. good luck

 

[mdubya]

Vibrato will solve your micro tonal tuning issues. eace2


I took my LP Special with its questionable for intonation wraparound tailpiece out of its case on Saturday morning. It had been put away for a few weeks. It was in tune out of the case. I played it without tuning up, recorded with it some, and continued playing it until late at night. I never touched a tuning peg or even stepped on the tuner to check the tuning.

I believe the nut is tektoid (graphtech?). Whatever it is, it works. I iz impressed. :hank

I use No. 2 pencil lead graphite for my nylon and bone nuts.

Gotta love white button tuners. My favorites.