lonesomesheik
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In the CC section, Robben Ford demonstrate an R8 with SD Eclair pu ( & he puts a neck pu in the bridge position), interesting vid, he show what an R can do in the right hands....
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SD Antiquities vs ThroBak PAF
- Thread starter Max89
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Mr. Papa
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I just swapped out the stock set of SD '59s in my H-157 for a set of Florance Voodoo '59s and the Voodoos are far superior--more sonic landscape, more highs, more depth, more complexity, everything you would want to hear in a pickup swap. But the ThroBak T-301s on my SG are somehow far superior to that. The tonal balance, strong but not piercing highs, solid lows, and juicy mids are just fantastic. It may be the wind, maybe I prefer the T style to the PAF style. Either way, I did this not expecting to hear much after the comments here, but despite myself I do hear a huge difference, and am probably going to start shopping for a set of ThroBak's for my 157.
Maybe a set of Ants is more easily beefed up to do the job, but the SD '59s just sound like garbage to me compared to the aftermarket pickups.
Maybe a set of Ants is more easily beefed up to do the job, but the SD '59s just sound like garbage to me compared to the aftermarket pickups.
lonesomesheik
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@SJB353
My mistake, it's in the Gibson custom/ historic section, title : Robben Ford new R8:salude
My mistake, it's in the Gibson custom/ historic section, title : Robben Ford new R8:salude
Wilko
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I've been reading this thread and thinking the same thing. My favorite pickup that I still have is an Ant (8.2k) with a mag from a P90 from that '56 Les Paul I got in 2010. I sold the guitar with a pair of PAFs that were both under 8k.
I still have that pickup and soon it will go into my #1.
LtKojak
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Actually, no.
At about 20' he states that the guitar in the video has the Gibson p'ups, NOT the Eclairs, and that's why they're comparing'em and joking about one sounding better than the other.
HTH,
LtKojak, lonesomesheik-
Yes, thanks, Pepe, saw that finally. I am not sure how that is germane to my question about testing pots already installed to test their value, but it was still fun to watch. I had to look up the Eclairs and they are quite low in the neck around 7K or so, but the bridge Eclair is way too hot at 15K. I can see why Mr. Ford liked the neck in both positions.
Mr. Papa-
Sorry to hear that the '59's sound like garbage. IIRC, on most forums they get anywhere from a C+ to an A-, depending. From others I have heard how good the T-301's are, and the re-wind set John did that is on youtube, an older gentleman sitting down with a LP '59 or so re-issue sounds terrific. It is available now on ThroBak's list. I called John to ask him what, in general, he did to those pups, and he said I could read about it as they were on his list. They were not on one list (there were 2) I was on so he fixed that. Can't remember the name but they are easily found on his page.
ECPickups '59, Ant's WA4's, Seth's W/A4's, ThroBaks', all such good pickups for my ears and tastes. I can't see buying anything else for a long time. Maybe, another ThroBak-lower wind, like the MXV 101 I think. But I feel pretty much set for life. Guitar wise also, set for life. A very good feeling. Now it is time to start saving my money and pretty much stick to the small things. pots, etc. even there, the only guitar with questions are the pots in my 61 RT. Every one of my guitars I have already re-built the innards. Although if they sound good at rehearsal, I'm just gonna leave them alone.
Time to practice and make my fingers do new and better things on my guitars. Playing well is the beginning and end of this journey.
Thanks folks,
Steve
Yes, thanks, Pepe, saw that finally. I am not sure how that is germane to my question about testing pots already installed to test their value, but it was still fun to watch. I had to look up the Eclairs and they are quite low in the neck around 7K or so, but the bridge Eclair is way too hot at 15K. I can see why Mr. Ford liked the neck in both positions.
Mr. Papa-
Sorry to hear that the '59's sound like garbage. IIRC, on most forums they get anywhere from a C+ to an A-, depending. From others I have heard how good the T-301's are, and the re-wind set John did that is on youtube, an older gentleman sitting down with a LP '59 or so re-issue sounds terrific. It is available now on ThroBak's list. I called John to ask him what, in general, he did to those pups, and he said I could read about it as they were on his list. They were not on one list (there were 2) I was on so he fixed that. Can't remember the name but they are easily found on his page.
ECPickups '59, Ant's WA4's, Seth's W/A4's, ThroBaks', all such good pickups for my ears and tastes. I can't see buying anything else for a long time. Maybe, another ThroBak-lower wind, like the MXV 101 I think. But I feel pretty much set for life. Guitar wise also, set for life. A very good feeling. Now it is time to start saving my money and pretty much stick to the small things. pots, etc. even there, the only guitar with questions are the pots in my 61 RT. Every one of my guitars I have already re-built the innards. Although if they sound good at rehearsal, I'm just gonna leave them alone.
Time to practice and make my fingers do new and better things on my guitars. Playing well is the beginning and end of this journey.
Thanks folks,
Steve
It's hard to follow what Robben says there... It takes several viewings to get it.
Robben's neck pickup is the stock Gibson pickup, while the bridge pickup is an SD Eclair neck pickup (but in the bridge position).
Unfortunately, no.
The pickup winding resistance is in parallel with (and very much lower than) the pot's resistance. Full up, you'll see the pickup's resistance in parallel with the pot's resistance (i.e., lower Ω than the pickup by itself). Full off, you'll get 0Ω.
Somewhere in the middle, you'll get a resistance quite a bit higher than the pickup's resistance, but no where near the pot's overall resistance. The meter sees 2 parallel paths through the pot from wiper (middle lug) to ground, one of them with the pickup resistance in series with that "half" of the pot.
So you'll need to unsolder the lead from the pickup itself to break the circuit to measure the pot's resistance.
Or... You can make an educated guess. If you know your Volume pot is an audio taper, turn the Volume half-up and just measure the resistance from a guitar cord tip-to-sleeve (hot-to-ground). A true 10% taper audio pot should have 1/10th its total resistance here, but the measured value will be lower than that (because of the path from wiper to full-up, out to the pickup and on to ground).
For reference, I measure ~44kΩ on my guitar at half-up. x10 is 440kΩ, and round up to the next standard pot value, or 500kΩ. Indeed, my guitar has 500kΩ pots for both Volume & Tone.
The Tone pot is different.
Turn it full up. Open the cavity, and put your 2 meter leads on the outer lugs of the Tone pot (1 lead per lug). You'll be measuring the Tone pot's total resistance.
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LtKojak
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NOT what he said.
"@ 21:32:
Robben: (pointing to his guitar)This is the Gibson p'ups, it's not... this is not Seymour's. (pointing to the captain's guitar)so, these are the same p'ups; so this (pointing to the captain's guitar's neck p'up)sounds better than mine.
Captain: this has a lot more bass, your bridge p'up (pointing to Robben's guitar's bridge p'up) I think is more usable for clean sound, I can't use this bridge for clean sound, it's too... it just wants to drive the amp too much."
Sorry!
It's okay if we disagree. :salude
What I believe I heard Robben say is that while he originally said both pickups had been replaced with Eclairs, that he later realized the neck pickup (which he was pointing to) was still the stock pickup, while his bridge pickup was the Eclair (and which he preferred in his guitar because it was less-hot than Rob's stock Gibson bridge pickup).
And it is interesting in that light that they had different sounds for essentially the same neck pickup, likely a result of the weight difference between the guitars (Rob's guitar was beefier in all positions).
What I believe I heard Robben say is that while he originally said both pickups had been replaced with Eclairs, that he later realized the neck pickup (which he was pointing to) was still the stock pickup, while his bridge pickup was the Eclair (and which he preferred in his guitar because it was less-hot than Rob's stock Gibson bridge pickup).
And it is interesting in that light that they had different sounds for essentially the same neck pickup, likely a result of the weight difference between the guitars (Rob's guitar was beefier in all positions).
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Little Jake
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NOT what he said.
"@ 21:32:
Robben: (pointing to his guitar)This is the Gibson p'ups, it's not... this is not Seymour's. (pointing to the captain's guitar)so, these are the same p'ups; so this (pointing to the captain's guitar's neck p'up)sounds better than mine.
Captain: this has a lot more bass, your bridge p'up (pointing to Robben's guitar's bridge p'up) I think is more usable for clean sound, I can't use this bridge for clean sound, it's too... it just wants to drive the amp too much."
Sorry!
Actually, Robben is inconsistent and contradicts himself. During the interview portion he points to the pickups in his new R8 and says that they are the Duncan pickups; a few minutes later, he says they are the SD Eclair pickups and that the bridge pup is the same as the neck pup, i.e., an Eclair neck wind. Then, during the guitar challenge portion, he says that the pickups in his guitar are the Gibson pickups. Take your pick...
Big Al
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I would just want to clarify a point about Seymour Duncan's Antiquity pickups. I do not prefer them with magnet swaps. I really, really, REALLY like them just as they are made. Really! IMO, they compared to my existing PAF's which I then sold to a Vintage Guitar Dealer to be put back into vintage Gibsons. I felt and still do that I found what I liked about PAF pickups in the Duncans. I did have a particular PAF in Zebra that was very "pushy" in a good way with mucho growl that I liked. I found two bridge Antiquities with similar resistant specs but did not sound like my real Zebra. They did when I replaced the magnets.
To be clear I was chasing an uncommon sound that this one particular PAF had, and most all my stash of vintage PAF's did not have. I thought, and still do that the stock Antiquities had all the tone and mojo of the vintage ones.
CAREFUL, swapping out of magnets can have a real effect on pickups voice and dynamics. Lt Kojak is the man in this area, IMO. I have found though, that most everybody that is searching for a "PAF" tone in a pickup, have little or no real time and experience with the real deal, and are chasing either an ideal, imagined tone or a recorded type tone that often needs a whole chain of gear to properly replicate.
Just saying, and not directing this at anyone, but it has been my experience.
True blue grade A PAF tone, what the hell is it?? I know what I think, but I do not for a moment think that others feel the same way. There is a tone and performance of all these things PAF, which is good. But in some cases it really should be just HUMBUCKER tone and not labeled as PAF. Custom voiced hum bucking pickups seem to offer many, many useful performance and can deliver what it is we expect, beyond the label of PAF.
They rather dizzying choices of various PAF recipes would support this, I think. Everyone has a tone they are chasing. Everyone has a personal interest in getting the tone that allows them to express their inner self, musically. As they should. I don't think there is a one of us that can declare that this, Brand X, is the one true PAF tone available, or that any one PAF is "THE ONE". I am very skeptical of any such declarations.
Quite simply, though I like the Ants and found my voice, the only thing that means, and the only weight it should carry, is I found my sound. Only applies to me.
Weeding out the info, and careful considerations to those with much experience, such as Lt Kojak or Jon from ThroBak, who has replicated a PAF and it's various types with epic effort extending to parts and the type machine employed, can help fine tune our ability to zero in our tone. I am starting to think though, that many have become PAF blind. I mean if it isn't labeled a PAF or PAF clone, it cannot be good, right?
Lot's of good info on this forum, and lot's to consider in finding our true voice. I think anything that causes us to examine in detail what it is, and what it takes, to achieve our person tone is a very worthwhile attribute.
I guess what I'm saying is open ears beats any other means of evaluation. Listening, critical listening beats any other resource and almost everything on a video or sound sample has some kind of processing or recording filtering, be it mic or preamps on the input. Mostley, and I think this often is overlooked, the person demonstrating such a thing, is creating much of the tone, THEMSELVES! Individual touch and soul of the player have HUGE effects on the final tone. You cannot get the same results unless you play the same at the same level.
So listen, but keep an open mind.
To be clear I was chasing an uncommon sound that this one particular PAF had, and most all my stash of vintage PAF's did not have. I thought, and still do that the stock Antiquities had all the tone and mojo of the vintage ones.
CAREFUL, swapping out of magnets can have a real effect on pickups voice and dynamics. Lt Kojak is the man in this area, IMO. I have found though, that most everybody that is searching for a "PAF" tone in a pickup, have little or no real time and experience with the real deal, and are chasing either an ideal, imagined tone or a recorded type tone that often needs a whole chain of gear to properly replicate.
Just saying, and not directing this at anyone, but it has been my experience.
True blue grade A PAF tone, what the hell is it?? I know what I think, but I do not for a moment think that others feel the same way. There is a tone and performance of all these things PAF, which is good. But in some cases it really should be just HUMBUCKER tone and not labeled as PAF. Custom voiced hum bucking pickups seem to offer many, many useful performance and can deliver what it is we expect, beyond the label of PAF.
They rather dizzying choices of various PAF recipes would support this, I think. Everyone has a tone they are chasing. Everyone has a personal interest in getting the tone that allows them to express their inner self, musically. As they should. I don't think there is a one of us that can declare that this, Brand X, is the one true PAF tone available, or that any one PAF is "THE ONE". I am very skeptical of any such declarations.
Quite simply, though I like the Ants and found my voice, the only thing that means, and the only weight it should carry, is I found my sound. Only applies to me.
Weeding out the info, and careful considerations to those with much experience, such as Lt Kojak or Jon from ThroBak, who has replicated a PAF and it's various types with epic effort extending to parts and the type machine employed, can help fine tune our ability to zero in our tone. I am starting to think though, that many have become PAF blind. I mean if it isn't labeled a PAF or PAF clone, it cannot be good, right?
Lot's of good info on this forum, and lot's to consider in finding our true voice. I think anything that causes us to examine in detail what it is, and what it takes, to achieve our person tone is a very worthwhile attribute.
I guess what I'm saying is open ears beats any other means of evaluation. Listening, critical listening beats any other resource and almost everything on a video or sound sample has some kind of processing or recording filtering, be it mic or preamps on the input. Mostley, and I think this often is overlooked, the person demonstrating such a thing, is creating much of the tone, THEMSELVES! Individual touch and soul of the player have HUGE effects on the final tone. You cannot get the same results unless you play the same at the same level.
So listen, but keep an open mind.
J.D.
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Well written, Big Al.
Only thing I'll add is it is very contingent on the guitar (wood) and amp, but moreso the wood IMO.
Sometimes one will find a "magic" combo that defies explanation. Hopefully everyone finds that at some point in their quest.
Only thing I'll add is it is very contingent on the guitar (wood) and amp, but moreso the wood IMO.
Sometimes one will find a "magic" combo that defies explanation. Hopefully everyone finds that at some point in their quest.
Big Al
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Yep! It took me years to realise that.
LtKojak
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Yes, that is correct. The tonal different between both guitars is much too big to be just the woods, if you ask me.
If I go with what my ears tell me, I'd say the following:
1. Robben's p'ups on that video INDEED ARE the Eclairs. Nice, clear and even tone throughout the guitar's range, inherent characteristic of the A4 mag, is there. Also, a good setup aimed to clarity was evident in Robben's case. You could hear every single note on those chords played by Robben.
2. the setup on the Captain's guitar was less than stellar, let alone the old strings, by own admission (looks like he was even having a hard time tuning it). For me it was no match... however, if those Custombuckers (assuming that those were p'ups) were A4 modded and had a good setup with new strings, it would've been a way closer contest.
HTH,
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I promised a report,
The text is not lining up the way I wrote it. Sorry about that, I do not know why it is doing this
As Big Al said: this is what I liked and what I heard.
Amp: Fender HRDeluxe 40 watt, stk speaker. Clean channel, Master full up, Vol on 6 for some natural tube breakup.
No pedals, a little amp reverb - 2 1/2
Guitars:
SG 61 RI, dense mahogany, bridge pup: Antiq. W/A4 mag (non stock)
LPJr. Similar density to SG mahogany, bridge pup: ThoBak PG-102 long A5 mag (stock)
Squire Tele, basswood, bridge pup: Electric City Pickups - "Freedom" or regular wind '59 A4 mag (stock)
Fender J.Beck Srtat. bridge pup: Seth Lover A4 mag (non stock)
All fretboards rosewood except Strat: maple.
List
1. ThroBak was my favorite. Full up sounded very close to what I hear as a Clapton/Green BluesBreaker, the
sound I think of as "PAF". Cleaned up nicely even with pup on 5 and tone was left on 10 for all pups.
2/3 ECPickups and Seth Lover were very close, both a tad cleaner on 10 than the TBak. ECP '59 had a bit more
in the mids to my ears. The Seth had something in the first nano second of pick attack I am not sure how
to put verbally, almost like you could hear the cone move and the pick on the string for that immediate scratch
sound, so I think the best word is attack at first "bite". They both cleaned up well, but a bit less treble on 5
than the TBak. A draw maybe, both good, gun to head, Seth-but only W/A4 mag.
4. The Antiquity had a touch less sparkle when full up. I was surprised. I did not care for it as much as the others,
for me, a close 4th. I understand I messed with the whole intent of the pup by using an A4 mag, so I feel my
lack of excitement for this pup was my fault, as the A4's were better in the Seth that the stock A5. I will put
the stk degaused A2 mag back in the Ant. and try it again soon.
Some pickup winds sound better to me with A4 mags, obviously, but clearly not a rule, as the ThroBak shows and the failed (for me) Antiquity pup A4 experiment.
The other guitarist in the room (big-lots of ambient cement on the walls, room the size of a big living room) went for the Seth, and today Ordered a set from MJ with a A4 mag, he liked mine so much. He thought the TBak was a little "dirtier" than he liked, so there you have it. I hope I have'nt left anything out.
Steve Buffington
The text is not lining up the way I wrote it. Sorry about that, I do not know why it is doing this
As Big Al said: this is what I liked and what I heard.
Amp: Fender HRDeluxe 40 watt, stk speaker. Clean channel, Master full up, Vol on 6 for some natural tube breakup.
No pedals, a little amp reverb - 2 1/2
Guitars:
SG 61 RI, dense mahogany, bridge pup: Antiq. W/A4 mag (non stock)
LPJr. Similar density to SG mahogany, bridge pup: ThoBak PG-102 long A5 mag (stock)
Squire Tele, basswood, bridge pup: Electric City Pickups - "Freedom" or regular wind '59 A4 mag (stock)
Fender J.Beck Srtat. bridge pup: Seth Lover A4 mag (non stock)
All fretboards rosewood except Strat: maple.
List
1. ThroBak was my favorite. Full up sounded very close to what I hear as a Clapton/Green BluesBreaker, the
sound I think of as "PAF". Cleaned up nicely even with pup on 5 and tone was left on 10 for all pups.
2/3 ECPickups and Seth Lover were very close, both a tad cleaner on 10 than the TBak. ECP '59 had a bit more
in the mids to my ears. The Seth had something in the first nano second of pick attack I am not sure how
to put verbally, almost like you could hear the cone move and the pick on the string for that immediate scratch
sound, so I think the best word is attack at first "bite". They both cleaned up well, but a bit less treble on 5
than the TBak. A draw maybe, both good, gun to head, Seth-but only W/A4 mag.
4. The Antiquity had a touch less sparkle when full up. I was surprised. I did not care for it as much as the others,
for me, a close 4th. I understand I messed with the whole intent of the pup by using an A4 mag, so I feel my
lack of excitement for this pup was my fault, as the A4's were better in the Seth that the stock A5. I will put
the stk degaused A2 mag back in the Ant. and try it again soon.
Some pickup winds sound better to me with A4 mags, obviously, but clearly not a rule, as the ThroBak shows and the failed (for me) Antiquity pup A4 experiment.
The other guitarist in the room (big-lots of ambient cement on the walls, room the size of a big living room) went for the Seth, and today Ordered a set from MJ with a A4 mag, he liked mine so much. He thought the TBak was a little "dirtier" than he liked, so there you have it. I hope I have'nt left anything out.
Steve Buffington
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Big Al
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That is how ya do it though. I like to hear things stock at first and the maybe swap magnets. I believe the Seth has Alnico II and not V. I also think that you should dial the amp in for each pickup. I have found that with so many guitars and amps in my possession that there is not a universal amp setting that shows all pickups or guitars in there best or more favorable light. IMO, and only that, I feel you need to adjust the pickups then find the spot on the amp it likes to dwell. All pickups just come to life and give you the best they have when they are living in the proper environment amp wise.
With one stagnant amp setting it is likely to favor some and not others. Though I am decidedly in the minority on this subject, it is how I evaluate pickups, tubes, speakers and such. Amps are fickle and sometimes a tiny change on a knob makes a huge difference in tone.
Still, I applaud your efforts brother and find your choices interesting. I am not a big fan of AlNiCo IV as others here so not much use to me. However it is pretty cool that you found something that works real well for you, AND THAT IS WHAT IT IS ALL ABOUT!!! Now you know, and the fine tuning fun begins. Man, I wish I could be there to witness. It is the coolest thing in the world when the dots start connecting up!:yah:salude:hank
With one stagnant amp setting it is likely to favor some and not others. Though I am decidedly in the minority on this subject, it is how I evaluate pickups, tubes, speakers and such. Amps are fickle and sometimes a tiny change on a knob makes a huge difference in tone.
Still, I applaud your efforts brother and find your choices interesting. I am not a big fan of AlNiCo IV as others here so not much use to me. However it is pretty cool that you found something that works real well for you, AND THAT IS WHAT IT IS ALL ABOUT!!! Now you know, and the fine tuning fun begins. Man, I wish I could be there to witness. It is the coolest thing in the world when the dots start connecting up!:yah:salude:hank
sonar
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- Jan 10, 2003
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What's worse?
Flipping pickups or speaker swaps?
Flipping pickups or speaker swaps?