Luxe PIO bumblebee capacitors

[Gold Tone]

Kind of late to this thread but I'd like to know if the Luxe caps are going to be any different than the Sprague PIO caps I have in it already? Mine are .22 and .15.

Your Spragues are what the Luxe are copying

You’re good!

 

[Blackie59]

Your Spragues are what the Luxe are copying

You’re good!

Thank you very much!!!

 

[randall]

Thanks Gaston! just ordered a set. I can totally hear a huge difference.

 

[Big Al]

Fully open is not the same as bypassing the pot. The pot is still adding minuscule levels of load into the circuit. That's why people created "no load" pots which really do cut the circuit when the pot is on 10.
Whether it's audible, or whether that's the source of the sound difference here, I don't know. But it's conceivable that the electrons are bouncing around a bit differently.

Not bypassing the pot, he said fully open bypasses the cap. With the tone pot wide open the cap has no effect.

No audio signal is sent from the tone cap. The cap acts as a fixed capacitence load and the only thing of consequence is the true value. Pots measured value plus capacitors true measured value. That difference is what you hear. In the same guitar caps of measured exact values have exactly the same load and tone is exactly the same, regardless the type of cap. Only the value matters regarding tone.

 

[J.D.]

+1 Al

While I have heard very subtle differences in cap types in certain parts of amplifiers, I cannot hear differences in a guitar circuit of exact same value caps of different types (and I really wanted to hear a difference between the $20 boutique cap and $.05 ceramic disc).

 

[Gold Tone]

Some people say they do some don’t hear a difference. I don’t think there is a difference either...they just look way cool and are a cheap bit of bling for us nerds

It’s good fun

 

[JPP-1]

Yeah, yeah measure smeasure, When I installed Luxe Bees in my historics, I got the sensation of being in front of a Marshall stack facing many thousand cheering fans. Oh wait, that was actually a York Peppermint Pattie. My bad.

Seriously though, I replaced the pots and caps on my historics primarily because I don’t like the turn “stiffness” of the historic pots. I never put my hands on a vintage pot that required that level of torque. It’s a feel thing and I’m sure not important to some, but I like it. As far as tone improvement is concerned, I can’t say if the luxe bees improved the tone because I changed the pots as well. If there was an improvement overall it was subtle at best. While I think there is some emperor’s new clothes going on with some of the hyperbole you hear regarding this stuff, I do think anything an audio signal passes through can effect the tone. To what degree and if it’s even audible is the question and that could probably be easily settled with a blind A/B test.

Not bypassing the pot, he said fully open bypasses the cap. With the tone pot wide open the cap has no effect.

No audio signal is sent from the tone cap. The cap acts as a fixed capacitence load and the only thing of consequence is the true value. Pots measured value plus capacitors true measured value. That difference is what you hear. In the same guitar caps of measured exact values have exactly the same load and tone is exactly the same, regardless the type of cap. Only the value matters regarding tone.

 

[randall]

You can clearly hear the difference in these clips.

 

[kt66]

Capacitors are not purely defined by their capacitance value and voltage rating. Ideal capacitors exist only in textbooks. Real world capacitors have parasitic resistive and inductive properties as well, which also impact frequency response.

http://www.ecircuitcenter.com/Circuits/cmodel1/cmodel1.htm

 

[randall]

Capacitors are not purely defined by their capacitance value and voltage rating. Ideal capacitors exist only in textbooks. Real world capacitors have parasitic resistive and inductive properties as well, which also impact frequency response.

http://www.ecircuitcenter.com/Circuits/cmodel1/cmodel1.htm

Tone science!

 

[Big Al]

You can clearly hear the difference in these clips.

Unless the caps were all measured and exactly the same value there would be a difference noticed as most caps have rather wide tolerances. Just a 5% tolerance can mean a 10% difference and many are +/- 15% which in some cases mean up to 30% missmatch. A pots true value has an effect too.

 

[Big Al]

Yeah, yeah measure smeasure, When I installed Luxe Bees in my historics, I got the sensation of being in front of a Marshall stack facing many thousand cheering fans. Oh wait, that was actually a York Peppermint Pattie. My bad.

Seriously though, I replaced the pots and caps on my historics primarily because I don’t like the turn “stiffness” of the historic pots. I never put my hands on a vintage pot that required that level of torque. It’s a feel thing and I’m sure not important to some, but I like it. As far as tone improvement is concerned, I can’t say if the luxe bees improved the tone because I changed the pots as well. If there was an improvement overall it was subtle at best. While I think there is some emperor’s new clothes going on with some of the hyperbole you hear regarding this stuff, I do think anything an audio signal passes through can effect the tone. To what degree and if it’s even audible is the question and that could probably be easily settled with a blind A/B test.

No audio signal passes through a tone cap in a guitar circuit.

 

[PaulD]

I do think anything an audio signal passes through can effect the tone. To what degree and if it’s even audible is the question and that could probably be easily settled with a blind A/B test.

As Big Al has pointed out the audio signal from a guitar does not pass through the tone capacitor, only the high frequency part of the signal that is being rolled off when you turn the tone control down passes through the capacitor and that is dumped to ground.

Some good blind listening tests here:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=817JHiYV_Po
https://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=M7Hu52vmxE0

 

[JPP-1]

No audio signal passes through a tone cap in a guitar circuit.

Well then, don’t I feel like the backside of a donkey. In that case, there is even less likely a chance that there are any tonal improvements to be had. Thanks for the heads up Big Al.

I had thought like most equalizer or tone circuits that audio or a portion of audio passes through the caps. I know with high end audiophiles, equalizers and tone controls are frowned upon because they “contaminate” the purity of the signal path. And these are folks who will spend $5k on a power cable.

 

[sws1]

Well then, don’t I feel like the backside of a donkey. In that case, there is even less likely a chance that there are any tonal improvements to be had. Thanks for the heads up Big Al.

I had thought like most equalizer or tone circuits that audio or a portion of audio passes through the caps. I know with high end audiophiles, equalizers and tone controls are frowned upon because they “contaminate” the purity of the signal path. And these are folks who will spend $5k on a power cable.

The signal doesn't go through the cap, but the cap siphons off signal. Just like a high pass / low pass filter does in the studio world. i.e. a filter doesn't pass audio...it removes portions of the signal. And they can all sound different. (Not to lay people, but engineers can hear the difference, particular at the cutoff frequency. A chunk of wood also removes signal from a vibrating string by transferring energy in the body. That signal that the body is absorbing is ALSO not going to the output of the guitar, but it certainly is affecting what does go to the output. IMO anything that is touching/steering/altering/massaging/rubbing up against the flow of electrons in the wire is affecting the sound one hears. Again, whether any human can hear it is a completely different story.

 

[renderit]

The signal doesn't go through the cap, but the cap siphons off signal. Just like a high pass / low pass filter does in the studio world. i.e. a filter doesn't pass audio...it removes portions of the signal. And they can all sound different. (Not to lay people, but engineers can hear the difference, particular at the cutoff frequency. A chunk of wood also removes signal from a vibrating string by transferring energy in the body. That signal that the body is absorbing is ALSO not going to the output of the guitar, but it certainly is affecting what does go to the output. IMO anything that is touching/steering/altering/massaging/rubbing up against the flow of electrons in the wire is affecting the sound one hears. Again, whether any human can hear it is a completely different story.

+1

You are my hero.

There is always a portion of analog which defies measurement and hence description.

 

[PaulD]

The signal doesn't go through the cap, but the cap siphons off signal. Just like a high pass / low pass filter does in the studio world.

Essentially correct - it is not "just like" a filter, it is a filter, the capacitor in conjunction with the impedance of the pickup in parallel with the volume pot forms a low pass RC filter.

And they can all sound different. (Not to lay people, but engineers can hear the difference, particular at the cutoff frequency.

So engineers have different ears to other people??? :bigal I have been an electronics engineer for over 35 years and don't consider my ears to be anything other than normal. I can hear no difference between different types of capacitor dielectrics in a guitar circuit because there is none.

IMO anything that is touching/steering/altering/massaging/rubbing up against the flow of electrons in the wire is affecting the sound one hears.

The analogy of electrons "flowing" through a wire is often used to explain the basics of electricity but in reality that is not what is happening, electrons do not actually flow through a wire in the sense that traffic flows along a road or water through a pipe. Nothing "touches, massages or rubs up against" the electrons, these are sub atomic particles and to attempt to make analogies like this is meaningless.

 

[Big Al]

The signal doesn't go through the cap, but the cap siphons off signal. Just like a high pass / low pass filter does in the studio world. i.e. a filter doesn't pass audio...it removes portions of the signal. And they can all sound different. (Not to lay people, but engineers can hear the difference, particular at the cutoff frequency. A chunk of wood also removes signal from a vibrating string by transferring energy in the body. That signal that the body is absorbing is ALSO not going to the output of the guitar, but it certainly is affecting what does go to the output. IMO anything that is touching/steering/altering/massaging/rubbing up against the flow of electrons in the wire is affecting the sound one hears. Again, whether any human can hear it is a completely different story.

No on all counts. Lots of gobbleygook and balderdashery there!

Trying to mystify and justify facts you are unaware of, or unfamiliar with, by hoodoo voodoo new age flim flammery, is just peddling snake oil.

Any cap, regardless type, brand or vintage, of the exact same measured value wil have the exact same effect in the same guitar's circuit. Exactly!

 

[jimknopf]

I've tested these 0.022MDF capacitors. Many of them by A/B comparsion with a small toggle switch. All measured to be sure they are in the specified tolerance.

Gibson Bumble Bee (non PIO)
TubeAmpDoctor PIO
Russian PIO K40Y-9
Luxe PIO
Emmerson PIO
Sprague Bumble Bee PIO (real old ones)

I'd never buy Luxe again. The DC resistance is lower then 20MOhm. All the brightness of the tone is missing. Vintage is not equal to sounding dull. Guitar volume is more quite.

Here are two sound samples taken directly from a Marshall 2203 into Rivera Rock*Crusher. Sorry for the hights ;-) Bridge PU tone 10-5-0, Neck PU Tone 10-5-0. Gibson Les Paul Collectors Choice #2 Goldie.

http://www.morauf.com/gibson/Gibson_Les_Paul_CC2-Original.mp3
http://www.morauf.com/gibson/Gibson_Les_Paul_CC2-LuxePIO.mp3

It's difficult to name a favorite besides the old Sprague Bumble Bee which sound totaly different to the others. The high mids (2k-3k) are turned down but the top hights are still full present. The TubeAmpDoctor are closest to them. And I'd place the Emmerson on 3rd.

 

[Gold Tone]

Great post and thank you for your effort. Always good to get good empirical data to form an opinion from.

I wonder, wouldn’t it be more accurate to choose caps at exactly the same value rather than within their stated tolerances? A 20% tolerance variance is, i. e. .176 to .264 for a .22uf cap. That’s quite a difference and will have far greater impact on final tone effects than will different types of caps at exactly the same values