• Guys, we've spent considerable money converting the Les Paul Forum to this new XenForo platform, and we have ongoing monthly operating expenses. THE "DONATIONS" TAB IS NOW WORKING, AND WE WOULD APPRECIATE ANY DONATIONS YOU CAN MAKE TO KEEP THE LES PAUL FORUM GOING! Thank you!

It Has Been Leaked

J.D.

Well-known member
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
10,018
This may be a case of Gibson not really wanting to make anything with BRW but ultimately will if enough people are willing to pay stupid money.

Reason I say this is it can bring attention to the historic inaccuracy of substituting EIRW. EIRW is good material but historically wrong, and they are already asking stupid money for "regular" historics, mainly on the historic accuracy.

People who don't want to pay up will often rationalize that fretboard material differences are insignificant. I personally disagree, but as long as the masses don't, they'll continue to keep those MSRPs as high as possible.
 

bursty

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 25, 2012
Messages
505
For any company that filed bankruptcy to the tune of $500 MILLION like Gibby filed for in 2018 and are likely still not pulling a profit, a business such as that would most likely need to milk as much OPM from the masses as possible, gimmicks and all.
If folks are dumb enuff to shell out $10K for a Braz' 'board 'upgrade' then peeps gonna B dumb dumb.
 
Last edited:

Wizard1183

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 20, 2018
Messages
748
For any company that filed bankruptcy to the tune of what Gibby filed for just a few years ago and are likely still not pulling a profit, a business such as that would most likely need to milk as much OPM from the masses as possible, gimmicks and all.
If folks are dumb enuff to shell out $10K for a Braz 'upgrade' then peeps gonna B dumb dumb.
And that will be the fall of Gibson once again. They’re pumping out as many high dollars as possible and it’s only a small amount that can buy them vs a kid wanting an ESP, Ibanez or Fender. If I’m spending the money? Fuck Epiphone for over $1k when I can buy a USA Fender.
 

William Payne

Active member
Joined
Aug 10, 2007
Messages
855
And that will be the fall of Gibson once again. They’re pumping out as many high dollars as possible and it’s only a small amount that can buy them vs a kid wanting an ESP, Ibanez or Fender. If I’m spending the money? Fuck Epiphone for over $1k when I can buy a USA Fender.

The other brands have always outsold Gibson. I highly doubt the custom shop is their core safety net. Same with ESP, how many ESP's are sold vs their "budget" range LTD models.

Young kids still like the traditional bands. I was at a musicians club show local to me a month ago and 3 high school age bands played. They were all very good and all played Squiers and Epiphones.

Those who buy custom shop guitars from any brands buy so because that is specifically what they want.
 

bursty

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 25, 2012
Messages
505
CITES does not apply to Brazilian rosewood. It's the sole exemption.

dalbergia nigra has been listed on CITES Appendix I since 1992 and as such it is likely the one lumber species that is most restricted in harvesting, trade and also as far as transporting internationally. If that doesn't apply to Brazilian rosewood then I must be missing something but I kinda doubt it.
 

bursty

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 25, 2012
Messages
505
You’re right, but I’d check other countries regulations before just selling a braz board guitar across the pond.

I used to ship guitars internationally to buyers; shipped to over 20 different countries but I no longer ship internationally because freight/shipping costs have gone through the roof. I ship guitars only to the lower 48 US, Alaska, Hawaii and Puerto Rico.

I'm not too concerned if I import a guitar with Braz because over the past 30 years I have yet to have an issue with importing an example. I'm willing to take that risk because I don't do it often and it's my money that I'm risking.

I refuse to export an example with Braz because it's the buyer's $$$ at risk and also the above mentioned shipping costs that are also prohibitive.
 

William Payne

Active member
Joined
Aug 10, 2007
Messages
855
The problem Gibson has is that they are not a big company. Just seeing the Andertons tour videos shows that. Yet they have a huge number of people willing to spend a lot of money to have something close to what they only made roughly 1500 of during a 2-3 year period over 60 years ago. People compare Gibson to Fender but I still to this day don't know why. If you want a solid body humbucker guitar you generally are not buying a Fender. If you want a single coil guitar you generally are not buying a Gibson.

Demographics play a huge part. I think style of music plays a bigger part in what instruments the young up and comers are buying. For example hardcore metal is very popular these days. Those guys generally are not playing authentic vintage styled instruments, chasing certain woods and pickups. If people listen to that and want to play they may go towards metal styled instruments.

My friends growing up who went the metal route went towards Ibanez and Jackson. I grew up with an older dad who led me down a very different direction towards blues and so I am very much a Gibson/Fender guy.

These guitars wouldn't be so in demand if it wasn't for people trying to have what their heroes had. Its like watching Dave Friedmans Tone Talk podcast, those guys won't shutup about Van Halen because for them that was their youth. The same as for others it was Page, Allman, or Clapton.

I have heard of people waiting over a year for a custom shop M2M order. It doesn't take a year to build a guitar so that to me implies a significant wait list. So the demand is obviously there.
 

MattD1960

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 17, 2009
Messages
736
In the end its all up to the individual buying the guitar. If a Braz Board makes it special to you and you have the money to spend then ROCK ON and buy ur 20k ML LP.
The enthusiasm over the last 30 years for the most accurate recreation of a burst possible is not lost on Gibson, for years and years many members argued over the smallest details. Gibson it seems with this rumor/insider info is finally doing what people have been clamoring for. a full on recreation with braz. they are finally caving to our demands and now that seems like its not enough.
 

jb_abides

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 6, 2005
Messages
5,210
dalbergia nigra has been listed on CITES Appendix I since 1992 and as such it is likely the one lumber species that is most restricted in harvesting, trade and also as far as transporting internationally. If that doesn't apply to Brazilian rosewood then I must be missing something but I kinda doubt it.

in 2019, CITES was amended to permit rosewood for finished instruments, including Brazilian.

The issue is no longer Gibson (or anyone) shipping finished guitars; the issue is manufacturers situated in any compliant country obtaining adequate supply, if not already present in country of manufacture.

References:

"As of 2019, CITES regulations were lifted regarding rosewood instruments. Meaning that if you travel, buy, sell, or trade rosewood-made guitars, no longer are you required to have an article 10 permit. You can even move freely with guitars made of rosewood and exceed the previous weight limit without a permit."


CITES Documents, Dalbergia nigra:
1700575230590.png

Relevant amended text, CoP18 Prop. 52

"All parts and derivatives are included, except:
a) Leaves, flowers, pollen, fruits, and seeds;
b) Finished products to a maximum weight of wood of the listed species of 500g per item;
b)bis Finished musical instruments, finished musical instrument parts and finished musical instrument accessories"
"The revised annotation also exempts from CITES controls finished musical instruments, finished musical instrument parts, and finished musical instrument accessories, reflecting the consensus view that the regulation of these items imparts little conservation value while increasing greatly the permit and compliance burdens."
 

jb_abides

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 6, 2005
Messages
5,210
No doubt: none of these will be lefty!

That said, if they are building bursts with Brazilian, I wonder if they'll do so via M2M..?

I already have 2003s with Braz, but a new-spec with custom-ordered neck shape might be tempting. Although the price would be ... egregious.
 

S. Weiger

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 25, 2002
Messages
1,721
in 2019, CITES was amended to permit rosewood for finished instruments, including Brazilian.

The issue is no longer Gibson (or anyone) shipping finished guitars; the issue is manufacturers situated in any compliant country obtaining adequate supply, if not already present in country of manufacture.

References:


"As of 2019, CITES regulations were lifted regarding rosewood instruments. Meaning that if you travel, buy, sell, or trade rosewood-made guitars, no longer are you required to have an article 10 permit. You can even move freely with guitars made of rosewood and exceed the previous weight limit without a permit."


CITES Documents, Dalbergia nigra:

View attachment 23780

Relevant amended text, CoP18 Prop. 52


"All parts and derivatives are included, except:
a) Leaves, flowers, pollen, fruits, and seeds;
b) Finished products to a maximum weight of wood of the listed species of 500g per item;
b)bis Finished musical instruments, finished musical instrument parts and finished musical instrument accessories"
"The revised annotation also exempts from CITES controls finished musical instruments, finished musical instrument parts, and finished musical instrument accessories, reflecting the consensus view that the regulation of these items imparts little conservation value while increasing greatly the permit and compliance burdens."
That unfortunately only applies to USA, right?

In EU the Cites nazi regime still rules with full force :(
 

bursty

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 25, 2012
Messages
505
in 2019, CITES was amended to permit rosewood for finished instruments, including Brazilian.

The issue is no longer Gibson (or anyone) shipping finished guitars; the issue is manufacturers situated in any compliant country obtaining adequate supply, if not already present in country of manufacture.

References:


"As of 2019, CITES regulations were lifted regarding rosewood instruments. Meaning that if you travel, buy, sell, or trade rosewood-made guitars, no longer are you required to have an article 10 permit. You can even move freely with guitars made of rosewood and exceed the previous weight limit without a permit."


CITES Documents, Dalbergia nigra:

View attachment 23780

Relevant amended text, CoP18 Prop. 52


"All parts and derivatives are included, except:
a) Leaves, flowers, pollen, fruits, and seeds;
b) Finished products to a maximum weight of wood of the listed species of 500g per item;
b)bis Finished musical instruments, finished musical instrument parts and finished musical instrument accessories"
"The revised annotation also exempts from CITES controls finished musical instruments, finished musical instrument parts, and finished musical instrument accessories, reflecting the consensus view that the regulation of these items imparts little conservation value while increasing greatly the permit and compliance burdens."

Thanks so much for that, wasn't aware of any 'change' and that is very informative information.

Having said that I won't be resorting to exporting any forms of rosewood, Braz or otherwise.

Thanks again .......
 

jb_abides

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 6, 2005
Messages
5,210
That unfortunately only applies to USA, right?

In EU the Cites nazi regime still rules with full force :(

Any CITES compliant signatory country, ~175 of them.

Of course, there are those who bend or ignore those rules. So, those who play by the rules are hampered more than those who do not.
 

jimijam33

Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2015
Messages
58
No guarantee these guitars will sound good, and based on past reissues they WON'T............
 

Wizard1183

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 20, 2018
Messages
748
No guarantee these guitars will sound good, and based on past reissues they WON'T............
All of them sound good regardless of a fretboard. That’s a hoax. Your sound good is not someone else’s. Not saying it’s gotta be ML to sound good. Any guitarist worth his salt can play a shitty Les Paul and you’ll say you want to sound like that. Your fingers and your picking hand will create the tone you want. It’s a bunch of bs. A guitar is simply a guitar. FR too many laid into it that that’s hwT causes tone. It’s the LEAST amount of the tone pocket. Period. Your hands and the amp has 95% of tone. The other 5% is in regards to the pickups

EVH put a PAF In a shit piece of wood and everyone wanted to sound like him and THEN? He changed the pickup And the necks a few times. Stop worrying about the guitar. It’s bullshit. Guitarists created the fallacy that a 59 is the cats meow. It’s not. It’s a rare guitar so it’s worth a fortune but ain’t no better sound than anything else. You want proof? The most expensive guitar ever sold was an acoustic played by Kurt Cobain. And many Fenders were sold much more than the Les paul. You can play? Or you can’t!
 
Last edited:

MattD1960

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 17, 2009
Messages
736
No guarantee these guitars will sound good, and based on past reissues they WON'T............
Id disagree seriously, i think the reissues especially the last few Years are really great sounding guitars. I am curious what you are comparing the reissues to to come to the conclusion they wont sound good
 

Dave P

Active member
Joined
Oct 13, 2001
Messages
947
If you want to spend an extra $10k for a 1/4" thick piece of wood, hey it's your money, not mine.
 
Top