Gibson R9 Authentication

[bluesky636]

The OP stated in the other forum that he paid $3K for the guitar. To me that's a BIG reason not to believe that this guitar is a real 2016 Tom Murphy aged and painted True Historic R9.

I paid $3K for my used 2014 R8 in like new condition back in 2016.

From Reverb:

Gibson Custom True Historic Murphy Painted & Aged '59 Les Paul Standard Sunburst 2017 | Reverb

The following specs were carefully collected and recorded by a skilled technician. For a more detailed description and questions regarding sound, feel, or cosmetic condition, please call to speak to one of our experts.SummaryFinish: Original factory relicBody Material: MahoganyTop Material: Maple...

reverb.com

Some are priced lower, others priced higher. This seemed about average.

 

[Subliminal lanimilbuS]

I am leaning towards a 2006 or 2016 guitar that Gibson screwed up with. I can envision with the amount of guitars they produce someone from the finishing department grabbing a wrong guitar. I haven't had any non historic guitars from those years to know if any of the non long tenon Les Paul models from those years had those types of fret markers. Maybe someone with knowledge of the other guitars in those 2 years can say if they had guitars with those fret markers. On the possibility that it isn't a Gibson I will add one other final thing, and only because of the fret markers. Brian Monty has been re-necking Gibson guitars for decades. Usually for people who want a closer 59 guitar. You send him any actual Gibson guitar and he would re-neck it with the Gibson logo. He was able to do this because he was modding an original Gibson guitar. Didn't charge a whole lot to do it either. I know someone with one from the 90's and it has the identical fret markers. He never put any serial number on the back of the headstock.

 

[jb_abides]

I am leaning towards a 2006 or 2016 guitar that Gibson screwed up with. I can envision with the amount of guitars they produce someone from the finishing department grabbing a wrong guitar. I haven't had any non historic guitars from those years to know if any of the non long tenon Les Paul models from those years had those types of fret markers. Maybe someone with knowledge of the other guitars in those 2 years can say if they had guitars with those fret markers. On the possibility that it isn't a Gibson I will add one other final thing, and only because of the fret markers. Brian Monty has been re-necking Gibson guitars for decades. Usually for people who want a closer 59 guitar. You send him any actual Gibson guitar and he would re-neck it with the Gibson logo. He was able to do this because he was modding an original Gibson guitar. Didn't charge a whole lot to do it either. I know someone with one from the 90's and it has the identical fret markers. He never put any serial number on the back of the headstock.

Yes, the scenario I described was an "oddball" went thru Gibson CS in 2016, to include Tom Murphy Aged to produce what they believe is a True Historic R9 Aged by TM.

Perhaps the 'grab' in question was a Custom Select 59 in white wood which emerged as a True Historic.

I don't see the inlays as fully consistent with older 'rounded' inlays, just that the photo lighting and resolution makes the points appear more diffuse.




If the aging is not by Tom, then it's so characteristic of Tom's methods and 'TM' tells it would seem impractical to take this effort to purposely fake. You'd have to practice, practice, practice enough to make aging for an intentional one-off fake of a reissue a strange proposition. Possible scenario: an in house CS employee acolyte of Tom did as practice, used the 'TM' tell..?

Folks have commented on the binding; please note the maple cap is clearly visible in the cutaway. Not conclusive about what it is, but helpful in figuring what it is not.




Using a USA as the basis for a fake is problematic, as the truss rod cover is too far north. A Traditional or early Classic/PreReissue would locate the TRC just above the nut. Effectively removing an impressed serial / Made In USA from a recent Traditional or other USA would prove difficult without other tells, potential impact on bushing height and posts, no?

Thanks for adding other scenarios to ponder... I don't understand how a Monty logo change alone would produce the outcome of this particular guitar. Did his work also move the TRC north by moving access higher toward the logo and backfilling wood behind? Is this even a 'thing'?

 

[bluesky636]

Yes, the scenario I described was an "oddball" went thru Gibson CS in 2016, to include Tom Murphy Aged to produce what they believe is a True Historic R9 Aged by TM.

Perhaps the 'grab' in question was a Custom Select 59 in white wood which emerged as a True Historic.

I don't see the inlays as fully consistent with older 'rounded' inlays, just that the photo lighting and resolution makes the points appear more diffuse.

View attachment 24184
View attachment 24185

If the aging is not by Tom, then it's so characteristic of Tom's methods and 'TM' tells it would seem impractical to take this effort to purposely fake. You'd have to practice, practice, practice enough to make aging for an intentional one-off fake of a reissue a strange proposition. Possible scenario: an in house CS employee acolyte of Tom did as practice, used the 'TM' tell..?

Folks have commented on the binding; please note the maple cap is clearly visible in the cutaway. Not conclusive about what it is, but helpful in figuring what it is not.

View attachment 24186


Using a USA as the basis for a fake is problematic, as the truss rod cover is too far north. A Traditional or early Classic/PreReissue would locate the TRC just above the nut. Effectively removing an impressed serial / Made In USA from a recent Traditional or other USA would prove difficult without other tells, potential impact on bushing height and posts, no?

Thanks for adding other scenarios to ponder... I don't understand how a Monty logo change alone would produce the outcome of this particular guitar. Did his work also move the TRC north by moving access higher toward the logo and backfilling wood behind? Is this even a 'thing'?

I am just amazed by all the excuses you manage to come up with to "explain" all the items that are clearly wrong with this guitar. Case in point being your photo of the inlays compared to photo #3 in the original post on this forum. That photo is quite sharp with good lighting and clearly shows rounded points on the inlays. Point #2, your marked up photo of the neck pickup cutout and your drawing of lines showing the "outline" of a nonexistent long tenon is laughable. Of all the years and all the photos that have been shown of the neck tenon, to believe that there is some "super luthier" who managed to achieve an absolutely perfect fitting neck joint is amazing. With all the complaining of the poor quality of Gibson’s work, this must be the only guitar this guy built.

Whatever theory or hypothesis or scenario you can come up with, this guitar is either a fake or so bastardized as to not be a real Murphy aged and painted 2016 True Historic R9. How else do you explain the OP paying only $3K for this thing compared to selling prices on Reverb? I see only two scenarios:

1. The seller was an idiot or

2. He got all that this thing is worth.

 

[S. Weiger]

Yes, the scenario I described was an "oddball" went thru Gibson CS in 2016, to include Tom Murphy Aged to produce what they believe is a True Historic R9 Aged by TM.

Perhaps the 'grab' in question was a Custom Select 59 in white wood which emerged as a True Historic.

I don't see the inlays as fully consistent with older 'rounded' inlays, just that the photo lighting and resolution makes the points appear more diffuse.

View attachment 24184
View attachment 24185



Folks have commented on the binding; please note the maple cap is clearly visible in the cutaway. Not conclusive about what it is, but helpful in figuring what it is not.

Inlays are "busy" and not consistent with 2016 inlays, as I see it.
My earlier comment was the neck binding being the thick version -again, not consistent with 2016 TH.
And control cavity is waay off.
But ok, may happen it really was an employee that grabbed the wrong production guitar and wrongly completed it as a "TH R9" .. almost anything is possible with Gibson..
Then again, if it was, wouldn't you think Tom M. would have caught the error when he was going to age it? (I don't really buy into your employee acolyte of Tom theory).

 

[Subliminal lanimilbuS]

I am not 100% sure of this, but I think all of the regular R9's excluding things like CC etc. that Tom Murphy aged after the team started at Gibson have his initials below the treble volume knob. Just wondering if the OP has looked for this and if he hasn't could post a good picture of the area under that volume knob.

 

[bluesky636]

I am not 100% sure of this, but I think all of the regular R9's excluding things like CC etc. that Tom Murphy aged after the team started at Gibson have his initials below the treble volume knob. Just wondering if the OP has looked for this and if he hasn't could post a good picture of the area under that volume knob.

It's on the other forum.

 

[Subliminal lanimilbuS]

Ah, yes. I remember seeing thst on TGP. Seems there were a lot of questions about the authenticity of the guitar which mirror those posted here. I think there are even more issues posted here (wrong fretboard inlays, weird headstock wings, control cavity shape, etc.).

Nothing I have seen in either threads convinces me that this is a real Tom Murphy painted, True Historic R9.

Thanks, I totally missed that this was in another forum. This guitar is definitely a white elephant. I see that it has the TM initials, but with so many people today able to age just like him I guess that means absolutely nothing. I also never noticed that the OP has disappeared so I think I am going to do the same.

 

[bluesky636]

The thread on the other forum seems to have run out of steam with no real conclusion.

The OP has failed to respond to anything in this thread. Not sure what answer he was looking for but mine remains the same - FAKE.

 

[Tone Ranger Audio]

Hey y’all! I’m here! The LP Forum took 5 days to approve my post as a first time user, so I haven’t checked it in a bit.

All of the plastics are correct. The pickup rings have the M-69 stamped on the underside, the toggle is the correct material, the pickguard has the rough edge like the historics have…

From what I’ve gathered, this is a legit TH. The guitar weighs 9.2lbs and I’m assuming the owner before the previous one wanted to remove weight by cutting out the wood in the control cavity and added shielding in there while he was at it. True Historics don’t have the R9 stamp I believe.

It does have a long flush neck tenon. It is very hard to capture in photos, but in person it’s quite obvious under light.

Tom Murphys signature is in the finish, and is aged quite well. Possibly the best aging on any guitar I’ve seen. The headstock is properly rounded like the vintage ones, so in conclusion, I believe this to be a genuine TH R9. I’ve called and emailed Gibson and they’ve confirmed several times.

It also came with the proper Lifton case, which alone is $500. For it to be fake, somebody would have had to spend a lot of money to do it well.

So maybe it’s an oddball?

 

[bluesky636]

Hey y’all! I’m here! The LP Forum took 5 days to approve my post as a first time user, so I haven’t checked it in a bit.

All of the plastics are correct. The pickup rings have the M-69 stamped on the underside, the toggle is the correct material, the pickguard has the rough edge like the historics have…

From what I’ve gathered, this is a legit TH. The guitar weighs 9.2lbs and I’m assuming the owner before the previous one wanted to remove weight by cutting out the wood in the control cavity and added shielding in there while he was at it. True Historics don’t have the R9 stamp I believe.

It does have a long flush neck tenon. It is very hard to capture in photos, but in person it’s quite obvious under light.

Tom Murphys signature is in the finish, and is aged quite well. Possibly the best aging on any guitar I’ve seen. The headstock is properly rounded like the vintage ones, so in conclusion, I believe this to be a genuine TH R9. I’ve called and emailed Gibson and they’ve confirmed several times.

It also came with the proper Lifton case, which alone is $500. For it to be fake, somebody would have had to spend a lot of money to do it well.

So maybe it’s an oddball?

Glad you think so.

 

[Tone Ranger Audio]

I’m also wondering if this could be some sort of prototype? Obviously it would have prototype written on the headstock, which this doesn’t. I might ship it out to Gibson to have them take a look at it.

 

[Tone Ranger Audio]

 

[Tone Ranger Audio]

Okay we have a development! There is a serial number under the finish below the black serial number when I shine my flashlight on it.

I can’t make out all of the numbers, but it’s there.

So maybe Gibson grabbed a different neck, and finished over it?

 

[S. Weiger]

1) Neck tenon is short, no matter how you try to make it sound like it's long.
2) Control cavity routing is that of an LP Standard / Classic.
3) A real TH R9 will have the "R9" in the cavity.
4) The shielding paint is to conveniently hide the fact that it does not have the "R9" stamp.
5) Neck binding is the thick version, not thin as on TH or other historics
6) All the above is of course just my take on it.

 

[Tone Ranger Audio]

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[60thR0]

1) Neck tenon is short, no matter how you try to make it sound like it's long.
2) Control cavity routing is that of an LP Standard / Classic.
3) A real TH R9 will have the "R9" in the cavity.
4) The shielding paint is to conveniently hide the fact that it does not have the "R9" stamp.
5) Neck binding is the thick version, not thin as on TH or other historics
6) All the above is of course just my take on it.

plus, like it or not, the fact remains that the tuners are simply wrong for a TH and there is no way anyone would have modified it to go backwards to an old, incorrect tuner like that.

And sorry but the pickguard is wrong. It needs to be more yellow than the rings, not less.

There was never any question here but if OP thinks they have a TM TH that’s great, enjoy.

 

[S. Weiger]

Okay we have a development! There is a serial number under the finish below the black serial number when I shine my flashlight on it.

I can’t make out all of the numbers, but it’s there.

So maybe Gibson grabbed a different neck, and finished over it?

If Gibson is responsible for this oddball, they must have grabbed the whole wrong guitar from the assembly line..

 

[Tone Ranger Audio]

If Gibson is responsible for this oddball, they must have grabbed the whole wrong guitar from the assembly line..

Yep. Asked the seller for my cash back. I want a REAL R9. I might still see if Gibson can tell me if they made a mistake. Could be an interesting story, however I doubt it.

 

[Subliminal lanimilbuS]

I’m also wondering if this could be some sort of prototype? Obviously it would have prototype written on the headstock, which this doesn’t. I might ship it out to Gibson to have them take a look at it.

Nice to see you are actually here. Can you take a really good picture of the flush long tenon. I have never seen a flush tenon on a Gibson Historic guitar. Have seen them on vintage bursts, but those didn't have the corners perfectly flush. Even then I could still tell where the flush end was. Every Historic I have seen has had straight cuts on the tenon corners and rounded corners in the body pocket. I added a picture of pretty much what every TH looks like. Notice differences like binding thickness, truss rod wood strip, etc. I would love to hear the outcome if you send it to Gibson. This thread will probably become one of the most responded if you do.