50's wiring vs Modern

[Lindgren]

Is there any difference in sound with 50's wiring vs modern stock wiring?
Does the volume control acts like a master or indpendent volume ? (in 50's wiring).

Can you hear any difference between caps (value and modell) when you have your tone control on 10 ? I dont think so.

I'm planning to rewire my new Standard with BB Pro's, i'm pleased with the neck pu but the bridge pu is a little bit too bright i think.


Thanx. :jim

 

[curt1lp]

When I redid the wiring in my 87 Gibson LP standard (see avatar) and also my Epi LP100, I used braided wire cloth covered vintage style and removed the shielding plate. I connected the caps up 50s style (I.E from the middle of volume to the lower outer lugs of the tone pots).

The 50s wiring alone made the guitar sound clearer to my ears. Removing the shielding plate seemed to make it also a little louder and clearer, I think because I could then run a wire from the pickup selector switch to the output jack unbroken, whereas with the shield there are two segments of wire used connected to a lug on the shielding plate. I have also read that shielding affects the capicitance of the circuit, correct me if I'm wrong. I found that could be true as when I shielded the control cavities with self stick copper foil and connected all that to ground the guitar sounded slightly muddier than I remembered it, so I removed the shielding tape and the sound was back to normal.

The 50s wiring (as I did it) did not lead to independant volume controls. If you turn one volume right down in the middle pickup selectr position then there is no output.


You can hear the difference between caps with the tone control on 10, definitely (the tone control variable impedance as at its maximum on 10). Value: Higher values roll off more highs. Model definitely, paper in oils and orange drops sound better than polyester-film. Ceramics sound better than polyester-film (greencaps found in most cheaper guitars), and probably not quite as good as paper in oils but the difference is less pronounced. A good cap seems to roll off the harmonics in such a a way that the "chord" produced by the fundamental and harmonic and undertones are all in tune with each other. The cheap caps can make the guitar sound ever so slighly out of tune no matter what you do as the harmonics are not exactly in tune with the fundamental. Voltage rating of a cap in a guitar circuit is of no account.

I hope that this helps your decisions for your guitar.

 

[Lindgren]

Thank you Curt for a interesting answer. Very helpful.

I've also found this link. http://www.dominocs.com/ToneWorks/mod50s.html

 

[curt1lp]

Thanks Mr Swede. If you thought what i said was interesting you have gotta read this. http://www.singlecoil.com/docs/paula.pdf. I am in no way affiliated with the site. Its all about how you can make your Les Paul sound like a vintage burst. It is THE best and most common-sense article I have ever read on the subjuct. This will be all you'll need.

Cheers Don

 

[GlassSnuff]

Can you hear any difference between caps (value and modell) when you have your tone control on 10 ? I dont think so.

If you don't think so, then I don't think you've tried it.

:welcome Welcome to the LPF! This is one of our favourite subjects. Try a search on "fifties wiring" or "modern" or "caps". Mostly, these things are discussed in the 'The Tone Zone'.

There are a lot of little things that can improve the tone of a guitar. I believe this is the best place on the 'net to learn about them. Why? Well, we all own Les Pauls, so getting a better guitar is out of the question! We have to tweak what we've got. Everyone else is too worried about resale value: they want to get as much as they can when they trade for a Les Paul. :biglaugh:

 

[Lindgren]

Thank you guy's for all the input and tips.

I must tell you that i have just changed (this minute) caps on my Classic LP from the original ceramics to Sprauge Orange drops ,022 and belive it or not i can hear a big difference in sound.

The sound just opened up and become more alive and singing.
Done nothing to the wiring so far on my Classic LP but i
will try the 50's wiring on my new LPS.

Once again, Thank you. :wail

 

[curt1lp]

Welcome to Tone-Heaven. :jim :dude

 

[Lindgren]

Welcome to Tone-Heaven. :jim :dude

Thank you Don. :biggrin:


Tony

 

[RickN]

To make it clear what the '50s wiring actually accomplishes, it's as simple as this: modern wiring has the tone controls connect to the first lug of the volume pot. The '50s wiring has the tone controls connect to the middle lug of the volume pot.

The effect this has is that the tone control is "before" the volume control on the modern wiring, and the tone control is "after" the volume control on the '50s wiring.

With everything on "10", there's no electrical difference. Where the '50s wiring comes into play is when you start twiddling the knobs. With the modern wiring, the tone control setting provides the same loading on the pickup because it's before the resistive element of the volume pot. On the '50s wiring the tone control remains constant on the output signal because it's after the volume control.

Also, in the '50s wiring, the with the selector switch in the middle position, the tone controls are always directly in parallel, so they're more interactive with each other. Neat stuff if you twiddle the knobs a lot.

An interesting note for people who what to try this: To get the true electrical effect of the '50s wiring, all you need to do is move the tone cap connection from the first lug of the volume pot to the middle lug of the volume pot. That's it. Sharp-eyed folks will note that the '50s wiring of the tone pot is different than modern wiring: Modern wiring tend to have the other end of the tone cap connected to the middle lug of the tone pot and third lug grounded to the pot case. '50s wiring tends to be the opposite: the tone cap is connected to the third lug and the middle lug is grounded to the case.

Electrically, it makes no difference!!!. It just doesn't. And even in the '50s, they didn't do it the same way every time. I distinctly remember seeing a picture of the control cavity of one of Mike Slubowski's original bursts that had the bridge pickup tone control wired one way and the neck pickup wired the other. I wish I would have save the picture. I agree that the predominant way was to have the cap on the third lug, but it's NOT absolute. Again, electrically, it makes no difference.

So if you want to get the true functional effect of the '50s wiring on a modern guitar, just move the tone cap from the first lug of the volume pot to the second lug. Presto!

 

[ashbass]

Spoke Mofinico:
To make it clear what the '50s wiring actually accomplishes, it's as simple as this: modern wiring has the tone controls connect to the incoming signal on the first lug of the volume pot. The '50s wiring has the tone controls connect to the outgoing signal on the middle lug of the volume pot."

The red additions abover are very important ones if you want to understand how the mod works. Also, if the guitar you are working is setup for independent volume controls, the text above without the red text will not give you 50s wiring. In fact, it will give you modern wiring.

The links below are full of useful information to help you on your journey.

LPF Wiring Diagram Library

50s Wiring Discussion

 

[Birdy]

Okay...I did it....I like it :dude


Has anybody opted for the 50's with the INDEPENDENT volume control ?

Pros/cons......soundwise/playability...or pain in the ass?

I don't have a soldering iron so I gotta drive to a bud's and do this...just
wondering what the general consensus is for indy volume/50's control.

Great thread man :yay




le

 

[Lindgren]

You guy's are great, this is the right place to be a member of when it come's to this kind of questions.

Many thanks again. :hank af :hank

Tony.

 

[Don]

So if you want to get the true functional effect of the '50s wiring on a modern guitar, just move the tone cap from the first lug of the volume pot to the second lug. Presto!

This also works very well on Telecasters and can be made to work on Stratocasters too.

 

[sliding-tom]

It's been said before, but here's the lowdown: with independent wiring, no matter if it's 50s or modern, as soon as you turn down the volume, the pickup "sees" only part of the pots resistance and you'll loose high-end response, whereas with "interactive" wiring, the pup always "sees" the full load, no matter where you have your vol.-pot.

 

[Birdy]

It's been said before, but here's the lowdown: with independent wiring, no matter if it's 50s or modern, as soon as you turn down the volume, the pickup "sees" only part of the pots resistance and you'll loose high-end response, whereas with "interactive" wiring, the pup always "sees" the full load, no matter where you have your vol.-pot.

Thnx s-t....no indy volume for me.


le

 

[BurstBrian]

As the thread topic says "50's wiring vs modern". If gibson tries so hard to make
these Historics as accurate to the original 50's. Why don't they duplicate
the original wiring?

 

[Primative]

http://www.singlecoil.com/docs/paula.pdf

I went to this site. I understand what is going on, except what are the red arrows on the tone pots indicating? I would be interested in making the change if I already have not done so. I put in a RS kit and went by their wiring diagram. Does it replicate the 1959 wiring, or the 60's and later?

 

[heliman]

As the thread topic says "50's wiring vs modern". If gibson tries so hard to make
these Historics as accurate to the original 50's. Why don't they duplicate
the original wiring?

You are making a pretty big assumption there! Check out this link if you think Gibson is really trying that hard:
http://www.lespaulforum.com/oldhistoric.html
There are other issues as well regarding the pups, capacitors, wiring, and pots.

During the initial publicity campaign in 2003, Gibson and MF pumped out a couple truck loads of BS in regard to the extremes they went in order to duplicate the original vintage LP's. X-rays showed they lied about the capacitors as well as other details. Well surprise, surprise!

Gibson could duplicate the originals (with the exception of tonewoods) if they really wanted to, but they are more interested in profits and producing look-alike parts. They never dreamed that knowledgable folks like the ones at this forum would dare question them.

 

[Trans-Am]

To make it clear what the '50s wiring actually accomplishes, it's as simple as this: modern wiring has the tone controls connect to the first lug of the volume pot. The '50s wiring has the tone controls connect to the middle lug of the volume pot.

The effect this has is that the tone control is "before" the volume control on the modern wiring, and the tone control is "after" the volume control on the '50s wiring.

With everything on "10", there's no electrical difference. Where the '50s wiring comes into play is when you start twiddling the knobs. With the modern wiring, the tone control setting provides the same loading on the pickup because it's before the resistive element of the volume pot. On the '50s wiring the tone control remains constant on the output signal because it's after the volume control.

Also, in the '50s wiring, the with the selector switch in the middle position, the tone controls are always directly in parallel, so they're more interactive with each other. Neat stuff if you twiddle the knobs a lot.

An interesting note for people who what to try this: To get the true electrical effect of the '50s wiring, all you need to do is move the tone cap connection from the first lug of the volume pot to the middle lug of the volume pot. That's it. Sharp-eyed folks will note that the '50s wiring of the tone pot is different than modern wiring: Modern wiring tend to have the other end of the tone cap connected to the middle lug of the tone pot and third lug grounded to the pot case. '50s wiring tends to be the opposite: the tone cap is connected to the third lug and the middle lug is grounded to the case.

Electrically, it makes no difference!!!. It just doesn't. And even in the '50s, they didn't do it the same way every time. I distinctly remember seeing a picture of the control cavity of one of Mike Slubowski's original bursts that had the bridge pickup tone control wired one way and the neck pickup wired the other. I wish I would have save the picture. I agree that the predominant way was to have the cap on the third lug, but it's NOT absolute. Again, electrically, it makes no difference.

So if you want to get the true functional effect of the '50s wiring on a modern guitar, just move the tone cap from the first lug of the volume pot to the second lug. Presto!

mofinco is correct.!!! You beat me there brother.This is what i did with my LP Special a while back...simple enough and when it's all said and done???There is a difference.RSKits are swell also.Upgrade/Tweak is the secret here.

Cheers!! :dude

 

[Cream Fan]

Those red arrows are indicating, and not very clearly, that that particular lug should be soldered to the casing for ground.