Valuable information to consider when evaluating the authenticity of a vintage burst

Zapper · Apr 8, 2020

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

JJ Blair said:
FTFY.

Morning JJ! What the hell does FTFY mean? Is it a yankie mnemonic for "Wow what a lovely and 100% genuine guitar"?! :spabout

Actually, on reflection, I do appreciate the time and effort you have obviously taken in looking at the photos of "The Nile" and imparting your (clearly considerable) knowledge. I've certainly learnt a thing or two about Bursts from your posts, so thank you for that. And you may well of course be right about it. Time will tell. I've now emailed both Gary Winterflood and Gruhn Guitars in Nashville for their opinions and will be reporting back to the forum as soon as they've replied. And as soon as this virus thing is over, I'll be taking the guitar to Gary's workshop in Kent for him to have a good look at it in the flesh. Hopefully then we'll all know for sure.....

So watch this space! Have a nice day (as i think you guys say..!)!!

Zapper · Apr 8, 2020

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

fakejake said:
Good point. A nice replica should be, what, 10.000? If that guitar should be what you claim it to be, it would probably be around 100.000.
I'd be REALLY pissed if there was even a shadow of a doubt.

At the end of the day it's only money fakejake..! We'll still have our health (and some of us even a sense of humour..!). And I'll still have a very nice, highly playable guitar!

Actually, if it does turn out to be a replica, I'll be quite relieved that at least it's worth 10 grand, rather than just a packet of beans!!

S. Weiger · Apr 8, 2020

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

Zapper said:
At the end of the day it's only money fakejake..! We'll still have our health (and some of us even a sense of humour..!). And I'll still have a very nice, highly playable guitar!

Actually,if it does turn out to be a replica, I'll be quite relieved that at least it's worth 10 grand, rather than just a packet of beans!!

Finally you are showing a bit sense .. -if you mean it, which I seriously doubt :wah

Ken Fortunato · Apr 8, 2020

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

JJ Blair said:
I've overlayed your cavity with a translucent red shape directly copied from my Burst. Can you see the discrepancy now?

Having read ALL of Tom Bartlett's material on "Burst" builds, tooling and methods, (in absolute amazement, I might add), AND conceding that I'm probably the least knowledgeable person on the forum as it relates to vintage guitars, I have to say, THAT picture says it all...

What am I saying, exactly? There's NO WAY that the truss rod cavity of the disputed guitar was made with the tools and methods used by Gibson, Bartlett and others...

Sorry, but in my "Non-expert" opinion, that's the way I see it... :salude

Zapper · Apr 8, 2020

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

KennyF said:
Having read ALL of Tom Bartlett's material on "Burst" builds, tooling and methods, (in absolute amazement, I might add), AND conceding that I'm probably the least knowledgeable person on the forum as it relates to vintage guitars, I have to say, THAT picture says it all...

What am I saying, exactly? There's NO WAY that the truss rod cavity of the disputed guitar was made with the tools and methods used by Gibson, Bartlett and others...

Sorry, but in my "Non-expert" opinion, that's the way I see it... :salude

In what way do you think they are different Kenny? The shape of the cavities? The nuts certainly look slightly different to my (untrained) eye...

And where can I find this Tom Bartlett stuff? Is it a book? Or article? Is it on the net somewhere? Clearly I need to read it. I've also heard about an authentication book by Israeli luthier Gil Yaron which is apparently very good. Have you/anyone else seen it, and know where to get a copy? I can't find one...

Zapper · Apr 8, 2020

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

Just for Stoj...... a pic of my babies..!! Two hired supercars and a fake guitar...! :rofl

Ken Fortunato · Apr 8, 2020

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

Zapper said:
In what way do you think they are different Kenny? The shape of the cavities? The nuts certainly look slightly different to my (untrained) eye...

And where can I find this Tom Bartlett stuff? Is it a book? Or article? Is it on the net somewhere? Clearly I need to read it. I've also heard about an authentication book by Israeli luthier Gil Yaron which is apparently very good. Have you/anyone else seen it, and know where to get a copy? I can't find one...

Google is your friend, brother... Tom's work is easy to find and a wellspring of information... Do your research... :salude

marshall1987 · Apr 8, 2020

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

fakejake said:
Good point. A nice replica should be, what, 10.000? If that guitar should be what you claim it to be, it would probably be around 100.000.
I'd be REALLY pissed if there was even a shadow of a doubt.

Problem with this guitar is it isn't even close to being a "nice replica", by any stretch of the imagination. Just look at the condition of the thang. :laugh2:

Given all of the high school wood-shop extras included with the OPs "60 Burst", I'd actually prefer a straight up Gibson 2019 LP reissue R9, cost perhaps $5,500.00.

Zapper · Apr 8, 2020

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

KennyF said:
Google is your friend, brother... Tom's work is easy to find and a wellspring of information... Do your research... :salude

Hey brother Kenny, according to our friend Google......

"Tom Bartlett is Senior Lecturer in Language and Communication at Cardiff University. His research centres on the relationship between social context and discourse style. This topic is developed in his recent book "Hybrid Voices and Collaborative Change", which examines community participation in local decision making."

His book looks good though!

eace2

https://books.google.co.uk/books/ab...CAAJ&source=kp_author_description&redir_esc=y

Zapper · Apr 8, 2020

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

Ooh.......! This looks interesting though...

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/tom-bartlett-vs-gil-yaron.1103378/

What I don't understand though is that if someone is gonna make a replica/fake of a guitar, then surely they're gonna copy it exactly... ie. make sure it has a 'chew', and the right logo, and the right shape 'moustache', and knobs in the right place and all the other guff you lot seem obsessed with...

I very much doubt the guys in Kalamazoo in 1960 were really that bothered about how 'exactly the same' all their guitars looked....

mipstoo · Apr 8, 2020

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

Zapper said:
Ooh.......! This looks interesting though...

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/tom-bartlett-vs-gil-yaron.1103378/

What I don't understand though is that if someone is gonna make a replica/fake of a guitar, then surely they're gonna copy it exactly... ie. make sure it has a 'chew', and the right logo, and the right shape 'moustache', and knobs in the right place and all the other guff you lot seem obsessed with...

I very much doubt the guys in Kalamazoo in 1960 were really that bothered about how 'exactly the same' all their guitars looked....

This is not a replica from a recent builder. It could even be a modified Japanese copy.
What you don't seem to get, is that there were specific tools, processes, molds and templates being used. Variations are very small and not in like your case as obvious.

I understand that you're trying to justify the purchase, but asking these questions up front would have saved you all this BS, some money and (maybe) stress.

Since we're not going to convince you, which you clearly showed in the 7 pages written before this, let's wait what a real expert like Gary has to say. I can point you onto some others, but I know the sellers, your friends, have been there already and got a negative advice. But obviously, they didn't care.

Patek · Apr 8, 2020

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

Zapper said:
Morning JJ! What the hell does FTFY mean? Is it a yankie mnemonic for "Wow what a lovely and 100% genuine guitar"?! :spabout

Actually, on reflection, I do appreciate the time and effort you have obviously taken in looking at the photos of "The Nile" and imparting your (clearly considerable) knowledge. I've certainly learnt a thing or two about Bursts from your posts, so thank you for that. And you may well of course be right about it. Time will tell. I've now emailed both Gary Winterflood and Gruhn Guitars in Nashville for their opinions and will be reporting back to the forum as soon as they've replied. And as soon as this virus thing is over, I'll be taking the guitar to Gary's workshop in Kent for him to have a good look at it in the flesh. Hopefully then we'll all know for sure.....

So watch this space! Have a nice day (as i think you guys say..!)!!

i think you would have done a lot better in this community if you just stuck to addressing people as per your comments in bold. And cut the sh1t out re the before and after.
just a tip

Patek · Apr 8, 2020

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

Zapper said:
At the end of the day it's only money fakejake..! We'll still have our health (and some of us even a sense of humour..!). And I'll still have a very nice, highly playable guitar!

Actually, if it does turn out to be a replica, I'll be quite relieved that at least it's worth 10 grand, rather than just a packet of beans!!

why are you ok with buying a fake burst and losing a load of money, but happy go to straight to court on libel / slander (you said you are litigious) against someone who only calls out a fake burst?

Patek · Apr 8, 2020

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

Zapper said:
Hey brother Kenny, according to our friend Google......

"Tom Bartlett is Senior Lecturer in Language and Communication at Cardiff University. His research centres on the relationship between social context and discourse style. This topic is developed in his recent book "Hybrid Voices and Collaborative Change", which examines community participation in local decision making."

His book looks good though! eace2

https://books.google.co.uk/books/ab...CAAJ&source=kp_author_description&redir_esc=y

you shouldn’t be buying dodgy bursts on a whim.
Defo stick to new LP reissues which you can buy new from a store with confidence. Don’t buy anything used as you might end up with a Chinese copy and not know it

you’re looking at your purchase with rose tinted glasses and very wishful thinking. Admit it you f’ked up

fakejake · Apr 8, 2020

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

Zapper said:
What I don't understand though is that if someone is gonna make a replica/fake of a guitar, then surely they're gonna copy it exactly...

Several reasons:
1. They don't know any better.
2. They know but just can't replicate some of the details.
3. They don't want to. This actually amounts for quite a large number of current (highly regarded) replicas. These builders copy all the major aspects, but leave just enough small hints not to fool an expert. IMO that's the fairest and most decent way to go about replicating a guitar.

metropolis · Apr 8, 2020

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

Zapper said:
Just for Stoj...... a pic of my babies..!! Two hired supercars and a fake guitar...! :rofl

I'd rethink that shelf on the left wall if I were you. Wouldn't want a spray paint can shaped dent on the lambo!

Ken Fortunato · Apr 8, 2020

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

Zapper said:
Hey brother Kenny, according to our friend Google......

"Tom Bartlett is Senior Lecturer in Language and Communication at Cardiff University. His research centres on the relationship between social context and discourse style. This topic is developed in his recent book "Hybrid Voices and Collaborative Change", which examines community participation in local decision making."

His book looks good though! eace2

https://books.google.co.uk/books/ab...CAAJ&source=kp_author_description&redir_esc=y

Really???

Bartlett Guitars

Frutiger · Apr 8, 2020

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

Every one of these guitars, the OP's 'Burst', the other alleged '59 and the two gold tops shown all have the same, glaringly wrong headstock shape.

Someone's got their own little fake factory going on somewhere. Shame they never had a real 1950's Les Paul to take the templates from.

'Reworked' my arse, these are all as fake as the day is long.

latestarter · Apr 8, 2020

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

interesting troll thread.

Good on you JJ.

GuitarMikey · Apr 8, 2020

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

<a href="https://imgur.com/N3TMOlb"><img src="https://i.imgur.com/N3TMOlbh.jpg" title="source: imgur.com" /></a>

Valuable information to consider when evaluating the authenticity of a vintage burst

Active member

Active member

Well-known member

Administrator

Active member

Active member

Administrator

Well-known member

Active member

Active member

Member

Active member

Active member

Active member

Well-known member

Active member

Administrator

Active member

Well-known member

Active member