CUSTOM SHOP Vs. COLLECTORS CHOICE Vs. TRUE HISTORIC

ForeverFabFour · Apr 26, 2018

Hello!

Let me first start by saying I am new to this form and I apologize if this topic is either in the wrong place or already been discussed. Nonetheless, here I go...
I am currently in the market for a new (used) Les Paul and have been looking at 1958 and 1959 reissues. Price aside, I was hoping somebody could explain the differences between all of the custom shop variants. I have some specific questions below:

1. Am I correct in thinking that the main differences between a true historic and a normal custom shop R8/R9 are the plastics and neck joint?

2. Would a collectors choice Les Paul from 2014 and onward be any more historically accurate or higher quality than a "Normal" or "True Historic" Custom Shop guitar?

3. I know I said "price aside" but broadly speaking would a custom shop Collectors Choice guitar hold its value any better than a True Historic Guitar? I would like to specify that no matter which model or varient I purchase it will be used which means it will have already taken its initial depreciation.

Thank you for you knowledge and I look forward to your responses!
All the best, -Matthew

Big Al · Apr 26, 2018

1- NO
2- NO
3- NO

Arnold M. · Apr 26, 2018

Big Al said:
1- NO
2- NO
3- NO

Collectors Choice and/or True Historic are awesome choices, grab the model that speaks to you the most and don't worry about depreciation just enjoy the guitar, and with either of those choices you will, believe me..

renderit · Apr 26, 2018

1) Neck joint the same on all 2013-now CS Reissues (commonly called R-s) Collectors Choice and True historics. Long tenon is the term used. Plastics differ on some but are fine on all. True Historics and some that came after 2015 have more accurate plastics.

2) No, but MOST are at least equal. Several I believe are 'as good' as some True Historics. Read that to mean they used True Historic plastics so it had to be CC's after 2015.

3) Holding value is pure bullshit in a luxury market. If the economy goes South EVERYTHING will drop. If it goes South badly EVERYTHING LUXURY will be worthless. That said there may be some CC's which will fare better than others. But you have to find the peeps that want THAT ONE. So I would say it evens it out. I would also hazard a guess that a CC may work out the other way as well, i.e. hurts you over a TH. The TH would be an easier sell.

I have answered your questions long-hand. Please realize I am an idiot and may have gotten some/all of this wrong.

El Gringo · Apr 26, 2018

IMHO, buy the guitar that appeals to you most .Purchase one that has the best playability and features or cosmetics , and don't forget about the tone of the instrument and your personal set up and style and your playing (amp) rig .Get whichever one works for you the best . I am a firm believer that you purchase an instrument to be loved and played , and also looks, not as an investment .

Tim Plains · Apr 27, 2018

1. https://www.themusiczoo.com/blogs/news/the-gibson-59-true-historic-les-paul-comparison

2. A CC is supposed to be more accurate to the specific burst it is copying. Neck shape, pickup voicing, top, etc. Don't get too focused on the top. It's hard enough to match one guitar to the original, let alone 300 of them. Quality is the same, they are all made by the same people in the same place using the same parts, but some people who buy such limited runs feel they are of the upmost quality. In my opinion, it's more of a means of trying to justify one's own purchase to themselves and trying to convince others that their limited run has something special.

3. Depends which CC you buy. I think used Shanks models hold their values well. I've seen them, and bought one, for just over $4,000. At that price, they are also in the range of regular R9 buyers. Something like a Nicky with a huge top and $8,000+ price tag will be much harder to move. The jury is still out on THs. Some people think they are better. Others, like you wrote, feel the differences are just plastics / pickup covers, and not worth the uncharge. Time will tell. They could go up, they could go down.

All my opinion.

JPP-1 · Apr 27, 2018

2013 and later historics have celluloid inlays, a sheathless trussrod, hot hide glue construction except for the maple top and Custom bucker pickups.

I believe the spacial relationship between the tone and volume nobs and the bridge are also more accurate. At which point this occurred I’m not sure.

The True historics have these features plus thinner nitro, more accurate plastics and pickups covers, a double carved top and hot hide glued maple cap

The 2017 and later historics share most of the attributes of the True historics with the exception of the double carved top. I think 2018 has whiter bindings.

Most of the collectors choice have either 2013 specs, True historics specs or 2017 historics specs depending what year they were made

Every guitar is unique and each will have its own particular tone, better or worse will mostly be subjective. These are outstanding guitars and unless you happen to get a real dog I can’t imaginne you will be more than ecstatic with any of these Gibson Historics

Deep Purple Fan · Jun 29, 2018

I purchased a R8 and Collector’s Choice #26 months apart of the last 18 months. Bought both mint condition and used. I received well over 50% off the new price on the 2014 R8 and 40% off the collectors choice. Both had the COA and case candy....no mods...mint.

If if you want to avoid depreciation, buy used and shop. Deals are always out there.

wintomato · May 19, 2019

An old thread, but wondered if you ended up getting one and what we’re your experiences and conclusions. I have a 2005 USA standard that seems to hold its own despite imperfections but am very interested in a 2015 60s TH. There seem to be a few from 2015 on the U.K. second market at the mo.

ForeverFabFour · May 20, 2019

wintomato said:
An old thread, but wondered if you ended up getting one and what we’re your experiences and conclusions. I have a 2005 USA standard that seems to hold its own despite imperfections but am very interested in a 2015 60s TH. There seem to be a few from 2015 on the U.K. second market at the mo.

Great question... I guess a little update is in order!
(For a brief over view go to the last paragraph. For a complete in-depth look keep reading!)

So believe it or not I’ve been through three or four Les Paul’s since I first posted this thread. I’ve been fortunate to do well financially this last year which gave me the freedom to try and buy my share of guitars.
The first Les Paul (which I had at the time of creating this thread originally) was a 2010 custom shop 1960 LP reissue. That guitar sold about a year ago and I was glad to see it go. It was a great guitar but was not what I was looking for. The neck was paper thin and there were some vintage inaccuracies which bugged me.
So after the 60 LP left I purchased an aged collectors choice #7. HUGE step up in quality, feel, and sound. After playing about a dozen or more CC guitars this last year I can see why they are an up-charge over a regular custom shop LP. Personally, I think they pay more attention to the CC guitars and that’s why they’re worth the extra dough. On a side note, I think all aged/relic guitars are better feeling... I know that may trigger some folks but that’s just my honest opinion. If you took two of the same custom shop guitars, one aged and new, I’d say the aged one feels better every time. I know it’s all factory done but the aging really helps a guitar to feel more broken in and “played”. But anyway, yeah... All in all LOVE the CC#7.

The second LP I picked up was a 2018 custom shop 1958 true historic in VOS. I bought this shortly after the CC so that I could live with both and compare. Needless to say, after 10 months of ownership I sold the 58 true historic. It was a fantastic guitar, in fact one of the nicest necks and set of pick ups I’ve had on a newer LP... but at last it was not meant to be. I didn’t care for the finish very much, nor the plastics. Which is odd isn’t it? The true historic guitars are supposed to have the most accurate replica plastics Gibson has ever made. However, I didn’t care for them and they were nothing like what I’ve seen on the original guitars. They were SUPER thin and the scratch plate in particular had quite rough edges. I also didn’t care for the aging of the VOS format on this particular guitar. The metals were oxidized in a weird way and the lacquer almost looked scratched, not aged.

This brings me to LP number three. CC #24 “Nicky”... AKA the best Les Paul I’ve ever owned! I picked this guitar up last month and absolutely love it. After having such a great experience with my CC#7 and selling the 58 true historic, I felt like trying my hand at another CC. Needless to say I’m a huge fan of the CC line and won’t be selling any of my CC guitars anytime soon.

The forth and final Les Paul is one that I’ve actually yet to acquire. It’s a 1959 heavy aged Tom Murphy with a top that makes your jaw drop. Considering I own two amazing CC LPs, there’s really no need for the Murphy guitar. However, if I can afford and get it at the right price I definitely will. The particular example I’m looking at is a local piece that I was able to check out last week. The Murphy guitars are great, not only because the spot on aging, but because he hand paints each one of them. The colors look a little different than the factory Gibson finishes and you can tell they’re applied by a true artist.

So in conclusion, the custom shop turns out great guitars all the way around. However, from my experience and time spent owning a variety of Les Pauls over the last year I’m personally a fan of the collectors choice line. I think they’re worth the money over a normal reissue custom shop LP. Who knows if the CC or Murphy guitars will hold their money better when compared to a standard custom shop LP, but frankly I’m not worried much about that since I have no plans to sell them. Oh, and the “true historic” stuff is a load of poop in my opinion. Seems like a sales tactic if you ask me. So to answer your original question, I would upgrade from a USA guitar to a custom shop guitar, however I don’t think a true historic guitar is worth the extra money over a standard custom shop reissue LP.

I know this was a quite winded response, but I hope it helped and was some good food for thought. Cheers!

Ace139 · May 20, 2019

Thanks for the update. Always like hearing about another Nicky Fan. :dude: I love mine too have had about 10 historics since ‘99 and Nicky is my hands down favorite.

Big Al · May 21, 2019

A CC and R series are made with the same care/quality. The extra is finish color and aging.

ourmaninthenorth · May 21, 2019

ForeverFabFour said:
.......

This brings me to LP number three. CC #24 “Nicky”... AKA the best Les Paul I’ve ever owned! I picked this guitar up last month and absolutely love it. After having such a great experience with my CC#7 and selling the 58 true historic, I felt like trying my hand at another CC. Needless to say I’m a huge fan of the CC line and won’t be selling any of my CC guitars anytime soon.

The forth and final Les Paul is one that I’ve actually yet to acquire. It’s a 1959 heavy aged Tom Murphy with a top that makes your jaw drop. Considering I own two amazing CC LPs, there’s really no need for the Murphy guitar. However, if I can afford and get it at the right price I definitely will. The particular example I’m looking at is a local piece that I was able to check out last week. The Murphy guitars are great, not only because the spot on aging, but because he hand paints each one of them. The colors look a little different than the factory Gibson finishes and you can tell they’re applied by a true artist.

So in conclusion, the custom shop turns out great guitars all the way around. However, from my experience and time spent owning a variety of Les Pauls over the last year I’m personally a fan of the collectors choice line. I think they’re worth the money over a normal reissue custom shop LP. Who knows if the CC or Murphy guitars will hold their money better when compared to a standard custom shop LP, but frankly I’m not worried much about that since I have no plans to sell them. Oh, and the “true historic” stuff is a load of poop in my opinion. Seems like a sales tactic if you ask me. So to answer your original question, I would upgrade from a USA guitar to a custom shop guitar, however I don’t think a true historic guitar is worth the extra money over a standard custom shop reissue LP.

I know this was a quite winded response, but I hope it helped and was some good food for thought. Cheers!

Been down the same road.

I don't like speaking in comparative terms, I think preferences are far more useful, and they are of course purely personal.

A/B ing a Nicky against my 2001 Murphy was a terrific exercise. I enjoyed both guitars tremendously.

The Murphy won, and there's little shame in the CC coming second, few guitars have quite scratched that itch that the Murphy did.

Good luck in the hunt for yours...

cds1951 · May 21, 2019

wintomato said:
An old thread, but wondered if you ended up getting one and what we’re your experiences and conclusions. I have a 2005 USA standard that seems to hold its own despite imperfections but am very interested in a 2015 60s TH. There seem to be a few from 2015 on the U.K. second market at the mo.

I have a 2015 True Historic 60 and love it. It weighs 7.85lbs and sings. I also own a 2015 58 True Historic that was aged by Murphy. It looks real LOL. I have been buying these Historic's since 1995. Every year after Gibson proclaimed a home run. The True Historic pickup covers, binding and plastics complete the picture after the 2013 through 2014 updates. The CCs are pretty inconsistent .. I had a Gruhn CC with True Historic appointments but the binding was too wide .. etc. In the end it is totally subjective .. go try them out.

ForeverFabFour · May 22, 2019

The praises you all sing of Murphy only make me only want to purchase one more!! :## LOL

After checking out one local Murphy aged Les Paul available for purchase, I have really wanted one. The fit and finish was very impressive. Having had the pleasure of examining and playing original bursts, and after years of owning vintage guitars, I can say with certainty that his replicas are the most accurately aged Gibson product I've ever seen. The only guitar I've seen which beat it (in my opinion) was an aged Gretsch 6120 done by Steven Stern. If it wasn't for the custom shop sticker on the back of the headstock you'd swear it was an original Gretsch from the 50s. But I digress...

If there are any other Tom Murphy owners out there, I would love to hear your experience of owning one of his aged Les Paul's! If there are any specifics I should look for, or likewise watch out for when purchasing a Murphy LP, do let me know.

Cheers, -M

Here is a quick pic of another local Murphy LP I might look at:

duaneflowers · May 22, 2019

Definitely something special about my Murph...

renderit · May 22, 2019

And do I think the True Historics are better than the old historics that came before them? Some are. I only look at the True Historics as being the next iteration of those that came before. Each year changes USUALLY got better. And USUALLY more consistent. And agree that the name was marketing crap to make up for a (marginal or more?) increase in labor required to do them.

jimeh77 · May 22, 2019

My CC#17 got the best neck profile and somehow sounds better than all R9 I have played but it’s not better than the true historics I have played.

i think when you buy higher model than the regular historics, you are buying quality control to some extend.

That is just my opinion and experience.

Rich R · May 22, 2019

I agree with Big Al, they're all excellent guitars. There are no secret handshakes. I broke down and bought yet another Historic, (which I had sort of sworn off), a 2019 R9, because I thought they finally came pretty close on my own little fetish, which is the cutaway and horn.

The new guitar, however, once again points out the Achilles Heel in all these guitars, which is the finish. It simply is NOT nitro in any original sense, and it affects the feel and sound. Original vintage finishes are like sugar candy: shiny, clear, thin and very easily damaged. Each guitar chips and checks, and fades in unique and interesting ways and places, as it goes through life--each area of the guitar has its own weird little history to tell

If Gibson would just go back to the old finishes, I guarantee that no one would care anymore about the molecular structure of the poker chip--they would finally be playing and loving Les Pauls as they were meant to be.

El Gringo · May 22, 2019

Rich R said:
I agree with Big Al, they're all excellent guitars. There are no secret handshakes. I broke down and bought yet another Historic, (which I had sort of sworn off), a 2019 R9, because I thought they finally came pretty close on my own little fetish, which is the cutaway and horn.

The new guitar, however, once again points out the Achilles Heel in all these guitars, which is the finish. It simply is NOT nitro in any original sense, and it affects the feel and sound. Original vintage finishes are like sugar candy: shiny, clear, thin and very easily damaged. Each guitar chips and checks, and fades in unique and interesting ways and places, as it goes through life--each area of the guitar has its own weird little history to tell

If Gibson would just go back to the old finishes, I guarantee that no one would care anymore about the molecular structure of the poker chip--they would finally be playing and loving Les Pauls as they were meant to be.

You sure speak a lot of facts and I for one agree 100% about the finish issue .

CUSTOM SHOP Vs. COLLECTORS CHOICE Vs. TRUE HISTORIC

Member

Well-known member

Active member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Active member

Well-known member

Member

Member

Member

Active member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Member

Member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Member

In the Zone/Backstage Pass

Well-known member