Where are they now...

[wmachine]

Hello Jim and welcome to the forum!

Your V-2 was made in Kalamazoo, so I would not have been involved with it.
That being said, I do have one record for a V-2 with an 82 Kalamazoo serial number. Why it was sent to Nashville to be completed I can't say.

That's a very nice LP you have. There has to be a logical explanation as to what happened with the color. Whatever the reason, I do not believe that it was simply a skipped process in finishing. When I was there, the color designation marked in the pickup cavity was subject to change right up until the minute it was sprayed. Schedules could change daily, and often did. These days, things are a lot more automated, using bar codes, etc. So it's anybody's guess as to what happened. Was the guitar originally put in the "system" as a sunburst, then the color got changed for whatever reason, and the label printed out with info stored in the system for that serial number? Who knows? Either way, it's a great guitar with a unique story. Enjoy :salude

Very beautiful Les Paul . My 2 cents is that the packing carton was simply mislabeled . No conspiracy theory or need to worry . Stranger and far worse things have happened to peoples guitars than that . Sometimes we look for logical explanations and there are none .

I have a "worse" mistake that that. I have a 2015 Gibson Memphis ES that I bought from CME in early 2018 at the very end of their of their Gibson Memphis warehouse blowout sale. It had languished in the Memphis warehouse, then stuck in a corner of the CME warehouse. There was supposedly some problem with it. The "problem" turned out to be that it wasn't what it was supposed to be. The box labels, the COA, and ultimately Gibson's records identify it as a 2016 "1959 ES-175D Vintage Burst VOS" reissue. But it is actually a 2015 "1954 ES-175D Dark Burst VOS" reissue. Only the s/n matches "everything". It took multiple emails, pics, etc. to get Gibson to confirm that I was correct about it being the 2015 model. But they refused to send me a corrected COA. And I doubt they corrected their records. But I have the emails for documentation purposes. FWIW, it is a fantastic guitar, supposedly one of 50 (51?) made for "worldwide" distribution and you won't believe how cheap it was!

 

[PermissionToLand]

@Strings Jr.

Do you know anything about an SG that seems to be a one-off '60s reissue built for Angus Young around 1981?

You can see here, it has the '70s-'80s style long, rounded pickguard tip and other pictures show the thick font, closed b Norlin logo inlay, but obviously it has a tenon cover and the neck is not set in deep, touching the neck pickup like a typical '81, and the switch is not in the '80s location. Bevels also seem deeper and heel looks smaller. Inlays should have been small blocks in '81, but this has trapezoids.

 

[Strings Jr.]

@Strings Jr.

Do you know anything about an SG that seems to be a one-off '60s reissue built for Angus Young around 1981?

You can see here, it has the '70s-'80s style long, rounded pickguard tip and other pictures show the thick font, closed b Norlin logo inlay, but obviously it has a tenon cover and the neck is not set in deep, touching the neck pickup like a typical '81, and the switch is not in the '80s location. Bevels also seem deeper and heel looks smaller. Inlays should have been small blocks in '81, but this has trapezoids.

According to my records, Nashville didn't begin building the old style SG's until late '85 / early '86. I believe the guitar in your photo was made in Kalamazoo.

This was the first old style SG built in Nashville with trapezoid inlays and a tenon cover. It was before they were known as the SG 62 Reissue. This was September 9th, 1985.



This was the first "SG 62 Reissue" built. It was built on March 26th, 1986.

 

[PermissionToLand]

According to my records, Nashville didn't begin building the old style SG's until late '85 / early '86. I believe the guitar in your photo was made in Kalamazoo.

This was the first old style SG built in Nashville with trapezoid inlays and a tenon cover. It was before they were known as the SG 62 Reissue. This was September 9th, 1985.



This was the first "SG 62 Reissue" built. It was built on March 26th, 1986.

Okay, that ties into my next question; do you know anything about the model pictured for the SG-62 in the catalogs? Because it's not an actual SG-62; the body and pickguard shapes are correct whereas the SG-62 was notoriously off. But it seems like it's not a real '60s SG either, because there's no sign of a vibrola ever having been installed. So maybe this was some kind of prototype? Perhaps that's the "old style" one, and that's why it's not called an SG-62? Can't imagine why they would deliberately make the production model less accurate though. I'd be really curious to get a good look at that '85 build.

Believe it or not, I've seen an SG-62 made slightly before that one; March 1st (80606571). The sale listing is still up:

https://www.gbase.com/gear/gibson-sg-standard-62-reissue-1986-cherry

 

[Strings Jr.]

Okay, that ties into my next question; do you know anything about the model pictured for the SG-62 in the catalogs? Because it's not an actual SG-62; the body and pickguard shapes are correct whereas the SG-62 was notoriously off. But it seems like it's not a real '60s SG either, because there's no sign of a vibrola ever having been installed. So maybe this was some kind of prototype? Perhaps that's the "old style" one, and that's why it's not called an SG-62? Can't imagine why they would deliberately make the production model less accurate though. I'd be really curious to get a good look at that '85 build.



Believe it or not, I've seen an SG-62 made slightly before that one; March 1st (80606571). The sale listing is still up:

https://www.gbase.com/gear/gibson-sg-standard-62-reissue-1986-cherry

No idea about the guitar in the catalog. It doesn't look like what the '62 Reissues looked like when they first came out. The guitar in the gbase listing is how they looked in the beginning. The catalog guitar appears to have double-bead Klusons, and a toggle switch washer. The first reissues had single bead Klusons and NO toggle switch washer. I have a note in my ledger that says we began using the toggle switch washer on April 16th, 1986.

Oh I definitely believe there are '62 Reissues with earlier serial numbers than the one I referenced. When I say that 80716504 was the first one built, that simply means it was the first one to be completed through Final Assembly. It wasn't unusual for guitars to get delayed, or "hung-up" somewhere in the process before making it to Final. Especially new models. I have evidence of that happening throughout my ledger.

 

[PermissionToLand]

No idea about the guitar in the catalog. It doesn't look like what the '62 Reissues looked like when they first came out. The guitar in the gbase listing is how they looked in the beginning. The catalog guitar appears to have double-bead Klusons, and a toggle switch washer. The first reissues had single bead Klusons and NO toggle switch washer. I have a note in my ledger that says we began using the toggle switch washer on April 16th, 1986.

Oh I definitely believe there are '62 Reissues with earlier serial numbers than the one I referenced. When I say that 80716504 was the first one built, that simply means it was the first one to be completed through Final Assembly. It wasn't unusual for guitars to get delayed, or "hung-up" somewhere in the process before making it to Final. Especially new models. I have evidence of that happening throughout my ledger.

No kidding? That's funny, I wonder why. Not even included in the case?

That makes sense about the order getting jumbled through production. I didn't think about that.

Okay, two more questions I've had for a while; what was the deal with the painted Firebrand SGs? I've seen more than one with a 1980 or '81 serial number, but documentation showing they were purchased new in '82 or '83. Were they struggling to sell them so they went back and painted a bunch of stock they couldn't move? It seems like production of new bodies didn't restart until 1983 because I've never seen an '82 serial number and by '83 they have the smaller headstock again.

Second, with the '80s SG Special, did they ever come from the factory with a pickguard? It's a common enough thing to see that I feel like it may have been more than just a popular upgrade, despite the catalogs never showing them with a pickguard back then.

https://reverb.com/item/236670-vint...electric-guitar-w-ohsc-olive-army-green-10508

 

[Strings Jr.]

No kidding? That's funny, I wonder why. Not even included in the case?

That makes sense about the order getting jumbled through production. I didn't think about that.

Okay, two more questions I've had for a while; what was the deal with the painted Firebrand SGs? I've seen more than one with a 1980 or '81 serial number, but documentation showing they were purchased new in '82 or '83. Were they struggling to sell them so they went back and painted a bunch of stock they couldn't move? It seems like production of new bodies didn't restart until 1983 because I've never seen an '82 serial number and by '83 they have the smaller headstock again.

Second, with the '80s SG Special, did they ever come from the factory with a pickguard? It's a common enough thing to see that I feel like it may have been more than just a popular upgrade, despite the catalogs never showing them with a pickguard back then.

There were so many variations of the SG during the 80's it was almost mind boggling. Once they started painting the Firebrands (SG and The Paul), they lost the "cool" factor. The painted finishes were just bland and un-appealing. That's why they sat in the stores for a couple of years.
Not sure why you haven't seen any '82 serial numbers. I built just as many SG's in '82 as I did any other year.

AFAIK, the SG Special was never spec'd for a pickguard. That was the whole point, to make it a "cost-cutter" guitar. Solid colors, dot fingerboard with no binding, no peghead veneer, no covers on the pickups, no toggle switch washer, and only one tone pot. Besides, the factory control layout didn't leave room for a pickguard. As you can see in the control cavity pic from the guitar shown above, the pickguard covers the original hole for the rhythm volume control.

 

[PermissionToLand]

There were so many variations of the SG during the 80's it was almost mind boggling. Once they started painting the Firebrands (SG and The Paul), they lost the "cool" factor. The painted finishes were just bland and un-appealing. That's why they sat in the stores for a couple of years.
Not sure why you haven't seen any '82 serial numbers. I built just as many SG's in '82 as I did any other year.

AFAIK, the SG Special was never spec'd for a pickguard. That was the whole point, to make it a "cost-cutter" guitar. Solid colors, dot fingerboard with no binding, no peghead veneer, no covers on the pickups, no toggle switch washer, and only one tone pot. Besides, the factory control layout didn't leave room for a pickguard. As you can see in the control cavity pic from the guitar shown above, the pickguard covers the original hole for the rhythm volume control.

How the heck did I miss that?! Haha

That's interesting you'd say it was the other way around with the Firebrands. So did they never refinish ones that were already painted in the original Firebrand finish? It just seems weird that the Deluxe was only introduced in 1980, and before the end of the year they already abandoned the distressed satin finishing. So when is the first painted Firebrand/The "SG" in your notes?

I found this documentation for one with a serial dating to late 1980, but a sale date of 1982:

 

[Strings Jr.]

How the heck did I miss that?! Haha

That's interesting you'd say it was the other way around with the Firebrands. So did they never refinish ones that were already painted in the original Firebrand finish? It just seems weird that the Deluxe was only introduced in 1980, and before the end of the year they already abandoned the distressed satin finishing. So when is the first painted Firebrand/The "SG" in your notes?

I found this documentation for one with a serial dating to late 1980, but a sale date of 1982:

They would never refinish cheap guitars like that. They would have more labor in it than it's worth.

Sorry, but I rarely noted the colors of instruments in my notes unless it was "out of the ordinary".

Thanks!

 

[PermissionToLand]

They would never refinish cheap guitars like that. They would have more labor in it than it's worth.

Sorry, but I rarely noted the colors of instruments in my notes unless it was "out of the ordinary".

Thanks!

Going back a few comments, I forgot to ask, do you know who might know more about the SG-62 development, or the (prototype?) pictured in the catalogs? And if so, could you put me in contact with them? I'm working on a wiki dedicated to the SG and that's probably the biggest mystery to me at this point.

 

[Strings Jr.]

Going back a few comments, I forgot to ask, do you know who might know more about the SG-62 development, or the (prototype?) pictured in the catalogs? And if so, could you put me in contact with them? I'm working on a wiki dedicated to the SG and that's probably the biggest mystery to me at this point.

Sorry, I don't have any definitive info on the development. I do remember seeing George Gruhn in the plant one day with one of the engineers. He was carrying around an original '61. The SG 62 came out shortly after that. You might try contacting George for some information.

 

[PermissionToLand]

Sorry, I don't have any definitive info on the development. I do remember seeing George Gruhn in the plant one day with one of the engineers. He was carrying around an original '61. The SG 62 came out shortly after that. You might try contacting George for some information.

Unrelated question: What is the difference between Tobacco Sunburst and "Vintage Sunburst"? And which would you call this?

I've seen quite a few SGs with the black to amber sunburst, but never one with a brown outer edge like this. Is this Vintage Sunburst?

 

[Strings Jr.]

Unrelated question: What is the difference between Tobacco Sunburst and "Vintage Sunburst"? And which would you call this?

I've seen quite a few SGs with the black to amber sunburst, but never one with a brown outer edge like this. Is this Vintage Sunburst?

As I've said before, I'm not a "finish" guy, but I can tell you the Tobacco Brown Sunburst (which is the proper name) had the dark brown outer edge with the lighter colored center. Like a cherry sunburst, but instead of spraying the outside edge red, it was dark brown. I don't remember seeing the Vintage Sunburst (VSB) until the re-issue craze started in the early 80's. It was intended to give a more faded or "vintage" appearance of the Tobacco Brown Sunburst color to a new guitar. Same for the Heritage Cherry Sunburst (HCSB). It was the faded / vintage version of Cherry Sunburst.

The SG in your pic is definitely not a Tobacco Brown Sunburst. It also looks too old to have a factory VSB finish. Are you sure that's the original finish?

 

[PermissionToLand]

As I've said before, I'm not a "finish" guy, but I can tell you the Tobacco Brown Sunburst (which is the proper name) had the dark brown outer edge with the lighter colored center. Like a cherry sunburst, but instead of spraying the outside edge red, it was dark brown. I don't remember seeing the Vintage Sunburst (VSB) until the re-issue craze started in the early 80's. It was intended to give a more faded or "vintage" appearance of the Tobacco Brown Sunburst color to a new guitar. Same for the Heritage Cherry Sunburst (HCSB). It was the faded / vintage version of Cherry Sunburst.

The SG in your pic is definitely not a Tobacco Brown Sunburst. It also looks too old to have a factory VSB finish. Are you sure that's the original finish?

I can't say I am (it's just one I came across on Reverb, and as an SG nerd was intrigued by), but it doesn't look amateur and has enough wear to conceivably be that old. I was always confused on this because when I think Tobacco, I think medium brown and the color Gibson uses just looks black to me, it's so dark.

While writing this comment, I went looking around and found another '75 SG in the same finish:

In the meantime, I came up with another question as I bought this 1984 pricelist which lists the tremolo options and has one I've never heard of before called the "Pro Tune". Is that just what they called the Kahler Flyer they offered? Or is it something else? I can't find ANY info at all through google.

 

[Strings Jr.]

In the meantime, I came up with another question as I bought this 1984 pricelist which lists the tremolo options and has one I've never heard of before called the "Pro Tune". Is that just what they called the Kahler Flyer they offered? Or is it something else? I can't find ANY info at all through google.

I believe the Pro Tune and Master Tune were made by Schaller. I'm thinking the Master Tune screwed down to the body with four screws. It was used on guitars with flat tops. I don't remember a lot about the Pro Tune. At that time, we didn't call them Pro Tune or Master Tune. Once we started using the Schaller Vibrolas, there wasn't enough room in the Stock Room (which was located upstairs) for everything to fit, because we were still using two different versions of the Kahler as well. So they started storing some of them downstairs. And that's how we referred to them. An upstairs vibrola or a downstairs vibrola (HAHA). Pretty sure the Master Tune was the "downstairs".

Sorry I don't have more info on the Pro Tune. There's a guitar with a vibrola shown in post #398 of this thread. It may be a Pro Tune, I can't remember.
What I do remember is that the Schaller units were inferior to the Kahlers. The Schallers seemed cheap and very unstable.

 

[PermissionToLand]

I believe the Pro Tune and Master Tune were made by Schaller. I'm thinking the Master Tune screwed down to the body with four screws. It was used on guitars with flat tops. I don't remember a lot about the Pro Tune. At that time, we didn't call them Pro Tune or Master Tune. Once we started using the Schaller Vibrolas, there wasn't enough room in the Stock Room (which was located upstairs) for everything to fit, because we were still using two different versions of the Kahler as well. So they started storing some of them downstairs. And that's how we referred to them. An upstairs vibrola or a downstairs vibrola (HAHA). Pretty sure the Master Tune was the "downstairs".

Sorry I don't have more info on the Pro Tune. There's a guitar with a vibrola shown in post #398 of this thread. It may be a Pro Tune, I can't remember.
What I do remember is that the Schaller units were inferior to the Kahlers. The Schallers seemed cheap and very unstable.

You know what, that must be it!

Because here's what comes up when I search for "Master Tune":

Which is clearly different and more simple, without fine tuners. But also has a very similar roller bridge part.

The ProTune does look a bit convoluted, although nice that it seems easily reversible to a stopbar, whereas the Master requires a rout.

Edit: Found another Gibson with the Pro-Tune:

 

[PermissionToLand]

I just realized that above SG has a mirror truss rod cover that I would have assumed to be aftermarket if it wasn't stamped "SG". Do you know if anything left the factory with a mirror TRC?

 

[Hobbyist]

Strings Jr. - thank you for starting this fascinating thread. And more importantly, for keeping it going by being so responsive. It's wonderful that you are so willing to share your recollections.

PermissionToLand - my thanks for a very worthwhile project that you have been undertaking (for some time, I believe, if I recall correctly from the SG forum). Without someone like you making this effort, all will be lost.

 

[Norton]

Hey Randy - any chance you have the Q80 protoype in your ledger? Since it's pink it may be hard to forget.

 

[Strings Jr.]

Hey Randy - any chance you have the Q80 protoype in your ledger? Since it's pink it may be hard to forget.

Yep.
March 4th, 1985.