Want a Reel to Reel for my studio. Looking for recommendations!

[Icandrive55]

If you are looking for a professional deck, the Sony APR-5003 is the ultimate expression of analog tape electronic technology. I has the least low-end hump of any machine and has digitally driven analog circuitry, allowing you to save setups. It is basically an MCI deck on steroids, because Sony bought MCI. Despite this, it is available used for reasonable coin. The studio where I work still has these and I owned one at one point and they are amazingly trouble-free.

The Ampex ATR-102 had the ultimate transport, stable and not suffering from tape-pack speed shift. It is the best editing deck in the world. It is also the most desired and most expensive. We sold thirteen of these to ATR systems where they were rebuilt with better record electronics and sold to studios for $10k or more. You should know that they have the most complicated transport system ever. If you aren't a tech, you'll need one to keep it running.

If you are willing to go quarter track (consumer), perhaps the best of the bunch was the Tandberg Cross-Field series. They had probably the best native signal-to-noice ratio due to the Cross-Field system. That consists of a second record head that swings up from below and presents a 180' out of phase signal to the back of the tape, allowing greater signal level. Because tape noise is a constant, a greater signal increases the signal-to-noise ratio. They are also available at an entirely reasonable cost.

Bob

Hi Bob,

Will have to take a look at these suggestions. Thanks for the info. I'm not in a rush and don't definitely don't want to buy the wrong tape machine. It's not exactly easy to swap out if I'm not happy with it. So I want to read up on everything possible.

I would say I'm looking for something in between professional and consumer. It's for my small studio at home where I'm only tracking guitars, vocals, and synths. So it's not a big deal to me to be limited to 2 tracks. I would love an ATR-102 but I think that's definitely too nice (and expensive) for the job. I love the sound of vintage tube preamps, which is what has me looking at the Ampex 351. I could seriously benefit from having a couple of really good preamps in my studio. I'm using a Great River, which is pretty nice, but kind of boring? It's not something you plug into and just get excited about. I feel like if I'm going to track on tape, I want it to sound obviously like tape, if that makes sense. I would probably use a more transparent machine to master at the end. So for tracking, I definitely want something that's going to sound big, harmonic, and has a lot of character.

 

[Wilko]

The better the machine, the more transparent it will be, and you know that. THat's why you're shopping for something you can FEEL. Definiete coloration.

The pysological effect is well documented as is the lack of excitement after growing up and being exposed to more and more music. It's not likely the technology as much as it is the loss of the magic that new sounds/songs create.

 

[rialcnis]

Hi Bob,

Will have to take a look at these suggestions. Thanks for the info. I'm not in a rush and don't definitely don't want to buy the wrong tape machine. It's not exactly easy to swap out if I'm not happy with it. So I want to read up on everything possible.

I would say I'm looking for something in between professional and consumer. It's for my small studio at home where I'm only tracking guitars, vocals, and synths. So it's not a big deal to me to be limited to 2 tracks. I would love an ATR-102 but I think that's definitely too nice (and expensive) for the job. I love the sound of vintage tube preamps, which is what has me looking at the Ampex 351. I could seriously benefit from having a couple of really good preamps in my studio. I'm using a Great River, which is pretty nice, but kind of boring? It's not something you plug into and just get excited about. I feel like if I'm going to track on tape, I want it to sound obviously like tape, if that makes sense. I would probably use a more transparent machine to master at the end. So for tracking, I definitely want something that's going to sound big, harmonic, and has a lot of character.

If the finished product is then put into a computer to mix with others, it will still maintain much of the benefits. The biggest disadvantage of vintage Tape Is making sure you can get parts and have a tech that knows the machine and can maintain it long term. That's one reason renting time at an pure analog dream studio is costly. Of course the room the recording is made is crucial.

 

[Icandrive55]

The better the machine, the more transparent it will be, and you know that. THat's why you're shopping for something you can FEEL. Definiete coloration.

The pysological effect is well documented as is the lack of excitement after growing up and being exposed to more and more music. It's not likely the technology as much as it is the loss of the magic that new sounds/songs create.

Yup, you get what I'm going for.

I would definitely agree that being exposed to more and more music lessens its affect over time. But I still feel pretty strongly that technology is contributing to that as well. It might be hard to hear the difference between a modeler and a real amp, but I think on a subconscious level, the brain knows that one is real and one isn't. And when you have these productions that are full of fake elements: modelers, soft synths, effects, audio converted to 1's and 0's etc, you end up with a product that's barely real. I think that is largely responsible for the lack of emotional impact in modern music. I mean, compare that to everything being played live, going into analog gear, and onto tape. One is taking place entirely in the physical realm, and the other isn't at all.

 

[Icandrive55]

If the finished product is then put into a computer to mix with others, it will still maintain much of the benefits. The biggest disadvantage of vintage Tape Is making sure you can get parts and have a tech that knows the machine and can maintain it long term. That's one reason renting time at an pure analog dream studio is costly. Of course the room the recording is made is crucial.

Yes, it's not going to be 100% analog. I will have to import into Pro Tools. I've done that before and it certainly maintains its character.

I live in Los Angeles and do know a couple of techs. But having a machine that's transportable would be very helpful to get it serviced. And I couldn't agree more, a really nice room makes all the difference.

 

[Bob Womack]

Hi Bob,

Will have to take a look at these suggestions. Thanks for the info. I'm not in a rush and don't definitely don't want to buy the wrong tape machine. It's not exactly easy to swap out if I'm not happy with it. So I want to read up on everything possible.

I would say I'm looking for something in between professional and consumer. It's for my small studio at home where I'm only tracking guitars, vocals, and synths. So it's not a big deal to me to be limited to 2 tracks. I would love an ATR-102 but I think that's definitely too nice (and expensive) for the job. I love the sound of vintage tube preamps, which is what has me looking at the Ampex 351. I could seriously benefit from having a couple of really good preamps in my studio. I'm using a Great River, which is pretty nice, but kind of boring? It's not something you plug into and just get excited about. I feel like if I'm going to track on tape, I want it to sound obviously like tape, if that makes sense. I would probably use a more transparent machine to master at the end. So for tracking, I definitely want something that's going to sound big, harmonic, and has a lot of character.

Look behind me in this pic from 1980:

Yup, a 350. I wonder if you can still get the ruby tape guides? You'll have to learn to "jockey the reels." These old decks have absolutely no transport logic, meaning that they entered into whatever mode you selected directly - you can't hit stop when you are winding because the instant torque generated by those huge AC induction motors will snap the tape and possibly worse. Instead, in fast forward, you hit rewind to slow it down and then hit stop as it nears a stop. And how about a story related to jockeying reels, HERE. Story is at bottom of page.

Here's a few years later with a Neve 8024 and ATR-102s and MM1200s.

The console now lives in a studio in Texas.

Bob

 

[Icandrive55]

Look behind me in this pic from 1980:

Yup, a 350. I wonder if you can still get the ruby tape guides? You'll have to learn to "jockey the reels." These old decks have absolutely no transport logic, meaning that they entered into whatever mode you selected directly - you can't hit stop when you are winding because the instant torque generated by those huge AC induction motors will snap the tape and possibly worse. Instead, in fast forward, you hit rewind to slow it down and then hit stop as it nears a stop. And how about a story related to jockeying reels, HERE. Story is at bottom of page.

Here's a few years later with a Neve 8024 and ATR-102s and MM1200s.

The console now lives in a studio in Texas.

Bob

Wow, how cool are those pictures? Nice to hear from someone with first hand experience with these machines. I've only worked briefly on a Studer back when I was studying MP&E at Berklee. Never had to jockey the wheels but I understand the concept. I had been reading about tapes snapping on older machines. I think I'd get the hang of it. What exactly are ruby tape guides though??

I just can't get over how much awesomeness was in those studios! I would kill for a tiny fraction of it. If I had rockstar money, I'd be running a Neve into an ATR102! I also think you get better separation in a mix with the slight variances on an analog console. When you're doing everything in the box, you have to create variances so everything doesn't mush together.

 

[seafood]

i'm an old guy...but i'm not lost in the past!!!!!....since i lived through it,i know how great all that stuff sounded back in the day!!!!!

 

[Bob Womack]

Wow, how cool are those pictures? Nice to hear from someone with first hand experience with these machines. I've only worked briefly on a Studer back when I was studying MP&E at Berklee. Never had to jockey the wheels but I understand the concept. I had been reading about tapes snapping on older machines. I think I'd get the hang of it. What exactly are ruby tape guides though??

I just can't get over how much awesomeness was in those studios! I would kill for a tiny fraction of it. If I had rockstar money, I'd be running a Neve into an ATR102! I also think you get better separation in a mix with the slight variances on an analog console. When you're doing everything in the box, you have to create variances so everything doesn't mush together.

Ruby tape guides are literally little cylindrical pieces of ruby that are used on the non-rotating tape guides. The ruby was considered to be low-drag so that it didn't contribute to scrape flutter. Here's another little dose:

MCI mastering deck, Tascam eight track, Ampex 440 below Tascam two-track. I'm on the left, Ken (RIP) on the right. Behind Ken's right hip, next to the Ampex 440 is Synclavier II serial #00001. Directly behind him is an ARP 2600, an Electrocomp 101 synth, 400 sequencer, and Polybox, and an EMS Synthi. We are facing the console, an Otari four track, Lexicon Prime Time delay serial #0001, and Lexicon 224 reverb serial #00002, among a bunch of outboard gear.

Here I am doing a session on one of two Neve 8058s we owned in 1982. Over my right hand are a pair of UREI 545 parametrics (I still own one) and the remote for a Lexicon 224 reverb. You can see one of a pair of ATR-102s behind me.

Slurping down in my chair after a long day of sessions on the SSL4048E/G. Behind me is the keyboard controller and monitor for a Fairlight MFX-3 workstation. In the foreground is the remote for the Lynx synchronizer that controlled the six transports in the machine room.

Current tape machines: a Sony APR-24 with Dolby SR noise reduction and a Song APR-5003. These days they are mostly used to bring out media from the archives to remix and remaster. This is an old shot so the computers have since been replaced.

My current environment featuring a Nuendo workstation on a custom PC with Avalon and Neve Portico outboard preamps for the money channels. The controller on the left is a Euphonix MC controller. Note the vintage 1997 Svetlana Electron Devices mug and DK Audio meter above it. Right computer is a Mac.

Hi!

Bob

 

[Wilko]

great stuff. That workhorse mac... what did you replace it with?

 

[Bob Womack]

A Mac Mini. It is my Internet surfing and email computer. The workstation is on a bespoke PC assembled by the engineers here at the studio complex. Installed about four months ago. Fast as a rocket.

Bob

 

[Wilko]

A Mac Mini. It is my Internet surfing and email computer. The workstation is on a bespoke PC assembled by the engineers here at the studio complex. Installed about four months ago. Fast as a rocket.

Bob

That mac box was everywhere. Don't know why they dropped that format. MY DAW stuff was firewire based. I have one, but it's now outdated.

 

[Icandrive55]

Ruby tape guides are literally little cylindrical pieces of ruby that are used on the non-rotating tape guides. The ruby was considered to be low-drag so that it didn't contribute to scrape flutter. Here's another little dose:

MCI mastering deck, Tascam eight track, Ampex 440 below Tascam two-track. I'm on the left, Ken (RIP) on the right. Behind Ken's right hip, next to the Ampex 440 is Synclavier II serial #00001. Directly behind him is an ARP 2600, an Electrocomp 101 synth, 400 sequencer, and Polybox, and an EMS Synthi. We are facing the console, an Otari four track, Lexicon Prime Time delay serial #0001, and Lexicon 224 reverb serial #00002, among a bunch of outboard gear.

Here I am doing a session on one of two Neve 8058s we owned in 1982. Over my right hand are a pair of UREI 545 parametrics (I still own one) and the remote for a Lexicon 224 reverb. You can see one of a pair of ATR-102s behind me.

Slurping down in my chair after a long day of sessions on the SSL4048E/G. Behind me is the keyboard controller and monitor for a Fairlight MFX-3 workstation. In the foreground is the remote for the Lynx synchronizer that controlled the six transports in the machine room.

Current tape machines: a Sony APR-24 with Dolby SR noise reduction and a Song APR-5003. These days they are mostly used to bring out media from the archives to remix and remaster. This is an old shot so the computers have since been replaced.

My current environment featuring a Nuendo workstation on a custom PC with Avalon and Neve Portico outboard preamps for the money channels. The controller on the left is a Euphonix MC controller. Note the vintage 1997 Svetlana Electron Devices mug and DK Audio meter above it. Right computer is a Mac.

Hi!

Bob

These are awesome pictures! Since you've used so much gear, I'm very curious to know... what's been your favorite signal chain for recording guitars?

 

[Bob Womack]

These are awesome pictures! Since you've used so much gear, I'm very curious to know... what's been your favorite signal chain for recording guitars?

Thank you!

Electric guitar amp: two mics, Royer R121 and Shure SM-57, side by side. My favorite preamp/EQ is the 33102 in the 1979 Neve 8058 console. I've got a Neve Portico preamp that can stand in for it but doesn't have the lovely EQ. That preamp used to be the little secret of the industry: everyone was going for the 1073 Neves so the 33102s were about half the price. The secret was that the preamp was virtually identical to the 1073 and the preamp was more flexible and a tad sweeter. They now cost the same as a 1073. I'd like to track on that Sony APR-24 with Dolby SR noise reduction.

Acoustic guitar for use in a combo: AKG C451E or C451B. Neuman KM-84s (original) are sweeter but hard to find. I like to run them into the Yamaha DM2000. The high slew rate preamps give me a nice "chirp."

Solo acoustic guitar: It's between Neumann U47s and early Neumann TLM-170s. Frankly, the top end shimmers a little better on the TLM-170s because they are transformerless. I've had really nice results with the Yamaha preamps.

Bob

 

[Bob Womack]

That mac box was everywhere. Don't know why they dropped that format. MY DAW stuff was firewire based. I have one, but it's now outdated.

Yeah, they essentially alienated the entire pro video and audio-for-video markets with the move to the stripped Final Cut X and the market won't be coming back soon.

Bob

 

[renderit]

I think they are attempting to get it back with the Studio now.

I was pissed when they bumped the high end workstations (pro) which I always used to the super computer with the super price tag.

I still have several older large units that still crank pretty well and they are a design dream.

But I have a problem justifying the 6K entry level on the replacement.

 

[J T]

Thank you!

Electric guitar amp: two mics, Royer R121 and Shure SM-57, side by side. My favorite preamp/EQ is the 33102 in the 1979 Neve 8058 console. I've got a Neve Portico preamp that can stand in for it but doesn't have the lovely EQ. That preamp used to be the little secret of the industry: everyone was going for the 1073 Neves so the 33102s were about half the price. The secret was that the preamp was virtually identical to the 1073 and the preamp was more flexible and a tad sweeter. They now cost the same as a 1073. I'd like to track on that Sony APR-24 with Dolby SR noise reduction.

Acoustic guitar for use in a combo: AKG C451E or C451B. Neuman KM-84s (original) are sweeter but hard to find. I like to run them into the Yamaha DM2000. The high slew rate preamps give me a nice "chirp."

Solo acoustic guitar: It's between Neumann U47s and early Neumann TLM-170s. Frankly, the top end shimmers a little better on the TLM-170s because they are transformerless. I've had really nice results with the Yamaha preamps.

Bob

Hey Bob!
Yes similar set ups here for EGT . The 121 and a 57. Works!
I use a Neumann KM56 out a bit at the body and two matched Josephson C42's in XY at the 14th fret on solo AGT. Someone at AES suggested the XY and I've been doing it ever since.
Yes things have certainly gotten a smaller footprint and faster computers.

 

[Bob Womack]

Hey Bob!
Yes similar set ups here for EGT . The 121 and a 57. Works!
I use a Neumann KM56 out a bit at the body and two matched Josephson C42's in XY at the 14th fret on solo AGT. Someone at AES suggested the XY and I've been doing it ever since.
Yes things have certainly gotten a smaller footprint and faster computers.

And much less expensive!

Try something new, if you have time: Try a reverse ORTF pair and turn it vertical. Late one night I was fretting about needing a a good array for an upcoming session in my sleep. X/Ys and spaced pairs tend to leave you with different spectra between the channels that have to be corrected with EQ. The idea of turning the X/Y to vertical occurred to me because it would maintain the relationship between the mics but would eliminate the spectrum problem. I wanted a slightly wider soundstage than the X/Y would offer as well, and it occurred to me that the ORTF array (seven inches apart, 110' angle) does just that. However, when-close miking an acoustic guitar, the 110' would place the axes outside the guitar and the angles of incidence of many mics would actually occlude the center. I came up with the idea of reversing the mics, turning them inward instead of outward, but maintaining the spacing and angle. I ran the math and found that the phase characteristics of the array are maintained and the angles of incidence offer overlap at the center. It ends up looking like this:

The sound is wonderful, offering plenty of spacing and a good strong center. I've used it extensively since. I keep a protractor/ruler in the mic closet to get the angle and distance right.

And now the disclosure: When I posted my "discovery," another recordist called me out, mentioning that George Massenburg had talked about using vertical X/Y a decade before. And he was right. For the Trio album (Rondstadt, Parton, Harris), Massenburg discussed the vertical X/Y idea in Mix Magazine and I read it. I apparently called up that memory that night before the session. My only innovation was adding the reverse ORTF.

But try it. You might like it.

Bob

 

[J T]

And now the disclosure: When I posted my "discovery," another recordist called me out, mentioning that George Massenburg had talked about using vertical X/Y a decade before. And he was right. For the Trio album (Rondstadt, Parton, Harris), Massenburg discussed the vertical X/Y idea in Mix Magazine and I read it. I apparently called up that memory that night before the session. My only innovation was adding the reverse ORTF.

Ha! I'll bet that kind of took the wind out of the sails of your eureka moment. Oh well.
Yeah the stereo effect of the AGT is really cool.
Hey btw, try the Eventide Split EQ. Great plug! Splitting the tonal and transients is great! A friend of mine suggested that and now I use it a lot.

 

[Icandrive55]

Thank you!

Electric guitar amp: two mics, Royer R121 and Shure SM-57, side by side. My favorite preamp/EQ is the 33102 in the 1979 Neve 8058 console. I've got a Neve Portico preamp that can stand in for it but doesn't have the lovely EQ. That preamp used to be the little secret of the industry: everyone was going for the 1073 Neves so the 33102s were about half the price. The secret was that the preamp was virtually identical to the 1073 and the preamp was more flexible and a tad sweeter. They now cost the same as a 1073. I'd like to track on that Sony APR-24 with Dolby SR noise reduction.

Acoustic guitar for use in a combo: AKG C451E or C451B. Neuman KM-84s (original) are sweeter but hard to find. I like to run them into the Yamaha DM2000. The high slew rate preamps give me a nice "chirp."

Solo acoustic guitar: It's between Neumann U47s and early Neumann TLM-170s. Frankly, the top end shimmers a little better on the TLM-170s because they are transformerless. I've had really nice results with the Yamaha preamps.

Bob

I also do the same for electric guitars (minus the Neve console.) But I did borrow a friend's Portico once and thought it sounded great. Thanks for the bonus tips on acoustics!