Tone myths

[CharlieS]

#2 is the problem. If you don't believe configuration changes are important, don't make any changes. But don't smear your negative opinions and smug superiority on everyone who disagrees. Since you're such brilliant scientists, you should be able to understand this.

+1

This is what has rankled me in this thread.

 

[mingus]

Enough already! Man, you guys are giving me a headache. I think we should all agree to disagree and go back to our respective camps. In the end, really, who cares? Isn't it all about enjoying your instrument(s), whether you choose to alter it or are happy to just leave it alone?

 

[Zhangliqun]

I disagree. The subjective nature of hearing and perception is the very thing we are discussing here. Social science is still science.

And still every bit as clouded by perception as everything else we perceive.

Using a blind test, we CAN attempt to test whether or not the placebo effect has any impact on reported user experience with regard to the tailpiece change. We can do so on a players' favorite guitar, the one that he knows backwards and forwards and can detect the slightest change on.

This is actually the very "test" that the experienced players in here have been informally conducting all these years. They know their guitar like a mother knows one triplet from the others without a moment's hesitation or confusion -- they will hear it if there is a difference. But this is also the very test that has been ridiculed and poo-pooed as being "just a guess" and unscientific.

Whether or not you or anyone else "dresses up" the results in a white lab coat is up to you. I have stated repeatedly my feelings on this.

My point -- again -- is that the very same perception reliability issues that have been used to poo-poo the voice of experience in the form of grizzled guitar vets also plague scientists and the scientific method that is supposed to be the only "truth".

JoeV and others are trying to have it both ways. They can't play the Perception-Is-Unreliable card when they want to ridicule these voices of experience, and then pretend those perception reliability issues miraculously disappear when it's convenient for them, i.e., when they or their favorite scientists are conducting the tests and when they are interpreting the results. If perception is really that unreliable, then at the end of the day, EVERYTHING, even the most stringent scientific research, is just an opinion poll. That was my point about the poll-in-a-lab-coat.

JoeV, I got nothing against you, pal, no hard feelings (or against you, conner). Run the tests and get back to us, we're more open-minded than you think and the results should be interesting at the very least. Just don't tell us that anyone who hasn't conducted a formal scientific inquiry into this or that is full of crap, no matter how experienced.

 

[CharlieS]

Enough already! Man, you guys are giving me a headache. I think we should all agree to disagree and go back to our respective camps. In the end, really, who cares? Isn't it all about enjoying your instrument(s), whether you choose to alter it or are happy to just leave it alone?

Thank you. I've had more than enough.

JoeV, I wish you well with whatever you decide to do with testing the parts. I do like your tube test idea and hope you post the results when you're done.:salude

 

[tusong200]

Are we back to where we began??

Joey's original thread/post was interesting and legitimate. The earliest responses were generous and kind. Joey's 'seemingly' dismissive attitude towards the responders' offerings ruffled some feathers. Joey apologized (remember that??) but the horse was already out of the barn. Now, pages and pages later, we're all out on our various philosophical limbs with saws in hand.

Wow!! Where am I??

But, have you noticed something?? Everyone, on all sides of the issue has remained civil enough that this thing hasn't been deleted.

I love this place....

 

[Wilko]

We are right where we began. I agree with JoeV and Myself.

The whole point of the first posts and the thread's question is that there may be a measurable difference "to the player". Also that no has proved that the difference can be heard by any listener.

All the variation on computers and their speakers don't change the result. If all sound files go through the same station, the difference would be the same.

You guys just don't get it. JoeV never said their wasn't a difference, or that a player wouldn't hear/feel it.

Can anyone hear demonstrate that any listener (not player) could hear the difference?

 

[AndyC]

So, do you guys want me to do the test, or not?

:hee :2cool


Guess I'll go back to playin my geetar. :hank

 

[les strat]

Man you guys are killing me with the science talk. True science has nothing to do with human perception. Science removes the human variable from the equation.

Someone needs to go back to school.

 

[Zhangliqun]

So, do you guys want me to do the test, or not?

Do it.

 

[Zhangliqun]

Man you guys are killing me with the science talk. True science has nothing to do with human perception.

That can be true only if scientists are not human.

Science removes the human variable from the equation. Someone needs to go back to school.

Science reduces the human variable, often to a very great degree, but it doesn't entirely remove the human variable because it is humans who perceive and interpret the results.

 

[les strat]

That can be true only if scientists are not human.



Science reduces the human variable, often to a very great degree, but it doesn't entirely remove the human variable because it is humans who perceive and interpret the results.

Of course not - then what would be the reason in testing if not for human wants/benefit. But a real sceintific test removes the human influence on the data.


I am not arguing that the tailpiece doesn't make a difference - I think it does, although not drastic. I have one. But I am arguing that what you folks are talking of being science is BS. Science is not just another held belief - it relies on hard facts and data to statistically back the results to where it becomes law or not. Anything else is just a theory.

Not that calling something a theory is a bad thing.

But science doesn't belong in music, and this thread is :dh

 

[The Craptain]

Science reduces the human variable, often to a very great degree, but it doesn't entirely remove the human variable because it is humans who perceive and interpret the results.

I have a monkey who perceives and interprets my results. His name is Michael.




GlassSnuff, did you get my email?

Mark

P.S. Michael also flings poo.

 

[TomGuitar]

Y'all oughta head to woodshed and start pickin' some guitar and stop fussin' over this nonsense.

 

[dgood]

Wow! 234 posts about basically nothing. Pretty cool :wail

 

[GlassSnuff]

I am arguing that what you folks are talking of being science is BS. Science is not just another held belief - it relies on hard facts and data to statistically back the results to where it becomes law or not. Anything else is just a theory.

As long as people keep posting serious objections, the horse ain't dead yet.

I will concede, however, that the salient points have been covered several times over and those that haven't 'gotten it' probably won't. :hmm

 

[cyberpunk409]

Wow! 234 posts about basically nothing. Pretty cool :wail

Seinfeld did it successfully for a decade

OK FELLOW LES PAUL FORUM MEMBERS... i'm 95% sure that i'll be buying an aluminum tailpiece on sunday (although that statistic has not been scientifically veried as of yet, hehe)

I will record 3 different licks with the stock TP (ranging from acoustically, plugged in, clean to distorted) and then record the same 3 licks with the aluminum one, same amp settings, and i will endeveour to apply same pick pressure and angle, same mic distance, etc. I will try my utmost best to keep variables (other than TP) to a MINIMUM.

We'll see who gets 6 out of 6. They will be small MP3 files of about 10 seconds length each and about 80k per filesize so those of you with dialup dont spend 5 hrs downloading them.

I'll even record one sample with the stock TP and name it STOCK so you ALL know. Then i'll record that same sample 4 times again, maybe i'll do 1 stock/3 aluminum or 2 stock/2 aluminum or 3 stock/1 aluminum... that will be the true test to see if it makes a difference since you will be told the first condition (being stock TP) and try to guess the other 4.

maybe not the BEST mic, maybe not the BEST soundcard, maybe not the BEST recording software... but they will ALL use the SAME hardware/equipment so it shouldnt make one iota of difference.

 

[Sean French]

Damn it,I'm back in it again.
I have a feeling the acoustic clips are going to be more revealing.:hmm

 

[D_rifter]

I'm still confused as to who this guy "Tone" actually is.

So, he myths. Big deal.

Well, I've also kicked a ball once or twice and I gotta say I've mythed a few times.

 

[Billy Porter]

Quote - Billy Porter

When I used to work in a music store customers would often ask for a bit more treble on the amp, or some overdrive. We used to pretend to turn the respective knobs and without fail they always said thanks.

Quote - tusong200

An interesting (and funny) observation, not without merit.... No, excuse me, it's not an observation, it's your opinion. Sorry. So I guess it has no merit???

Eh ? So if I observe something it becomes my opinion (??)

True - it doesn't have much merit - just a silly game we played on customers :rofl

 

[AndyC]

Well, I've also kicked a ball once or twice and I gotta say I've mythed a few times.

:ha!


It's my opinion that you just made me spit out my coffee all over my white lab coat!!