late-1960s ES-335 headstock minutiae, etc.

[vintage58]

Although there have already been numerous discussions on the Les Paul Forum about Les Pauls from 1968, 1969, and 1970—specifically, on how to differentiate one year's set (or mixture) of specifications from another—there doesn't seem to have ever been a definitive 'counterpart' thread about ES-335's from those years. Given that Gibson serial numbers between 1966 and 1969 are a bit, uh, "murky" (to say the least), I thought perhaps there should be such a thread.

Along those lines, below is a random list of late-1960s ES-335 specifications, and related observations and/or questions. Please feel to amend or disagree with any of this, since I'm mainly trying to clarify my own understanding of these specs. As always, any input would be greatly appreciated:

Gibson logo on headstock
- dot appears over "i" (through 1968?)
- dot over "i" disappears (1969)
- dot over "i" reappears (1970 and on)
- "b" and "o" are open (through 1969)
- "b" and "o" are closed (1970 and on)

crown inlay on headstock
There seem to be two versions of this inlay. One is "chunkier" (left) and the other is narrower (right):

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The chunkier version seems to have been used through and including 1969. The narrower version seems to first appear in 1969, and then continues through 1970 (and on, presumably?).

The placement of the crown inlay also seems to vary quite a bit (even within each individual year), but in general seems to get lower with each subsequent year, until it "settles" approximately half an inch from the upper end of the truss rod cover in 1970, as the below images illustrate; note the change in the four 1969 images, from the first version of the inlay to the subsequent version:

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Label inside bass-side f-hole
Norlin-era rectangular label first appears in 1970; however, earlier-style oval orange label is apparently still seen even after 1970.

Volute
Begins in 1970?

"Made in U.S.A." stamp beneath serial number on back of headstock
Begins in 1970?

Three-piece neck
Begins in 1969? (I've seen at least one 1969 ES-335 that had a three-piece neck with no volute and no "Made in U.S.A." stamp.)

"Witch hat" knobs
In what year do these first replace reflector knobs?
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[bigjimsguitars]

Looks like you pretty much got it covered...I believe the witchhat's started showing up in very late 1967 and most certainly in 1968....

 

[vintage58]

Thanks for the info on the knobs.

I just realized that I left out one additional observation that concerns ES-335 body shapes during the aforementioned range of years, which I suppose ought to be included in this thread; I'd be curious to hear other forum members' thoughts on this subject.

Specifically, I've noticed that there seem to be two late-1960s body-shape variants, as shown below:

The left variant is the pointy shape that came after the late-1950s/early-1960s "Mickey Mouse"-ears shape. As I understand things, this variant began in mid- or late-1963. From what I've observed, it seems to have lasted until 1967. In 1968, the variant shown on the right begins to appear. It features cutaways that are slightly more rounded than those in the left variant, but not quite as rounded as the "Mickey Mouse"-ears shape. It continues throughout 1969. Not sure if the 1970 shape is exactly the same as it, but the right variant strikes me as one of the more aesthetically appealing shapes that the ES-335 has gone through.
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[Troels]

How high the dot... on my 1960 the i-dot is above the the top of b - but sometimes the dot is placed below the top of the b - and the distance may to the b may vary slightly as well.

 

[Troels]

Thanks for the info on the knobs.

I just realized that I left out one additional observation that concerns ES-335 body shapes during the aforementioned range of years, which I suppose ought to be included in this thread; I'd be curious to hear other forum members' thoughts on this subject.

Specifically, I've noticed that there seem to be two late-1960s body-shape variants, as shown below:

The left variant is the pointy shape that came after the late-1950s/early-1960s "Mickey Mouse"-ears shape. As I understand things, this variant began in mid- or late-1963. From what I've observed, it seems to have lasted until 1967. In 1968, the variant shown on the right begins to appear. It features cutaways that are slightly more rounded than those in the left variant, but not quite as rounded as the "Mickey Mouse"-ears shape. It continues throughout 1969. Not sure if the 1970 shape is exactly the same as it, but the right variant strikes me as one of the more aesthetically appealing shapes that the ES-335 has gone through.
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To me it seems that there are at least two (or maybe three) different waist shapes as well in the 60s and well into the 70s.. In the late 70s I believe there is a waist design with clearly weaker waist arches (like a Tele or so...) in combination with the pointiest body horns. This type almost doesn't look like a "real" ES 335...

 

[vintage58]

I think I know the later, 1970s ES-335 body shape that you're referring to, and I'd have to agree that it's somewhat of an anomaly (and an ugly one, at that!) compared with the shapes previously used. Below is an example of the body shape used on a 1978 ES-335; is this the one you mean?

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[MikeSlub]

vintage58: Thanks for the in-depth analysis of 335 details! These kind of threads are what make the LPF a GREAT place! :dude

 

[Troels]

I think I know the later, 1970s ES-335 body shape that you're referring to, and I'd have to agree that it's somewhat of an anomaly (and an ugly one, at that!) compared with the shapes previously used. Below is an example of the body shape used on a 1978 ES-335; is this the one you mean?

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That's exactly the one I meant... but I can see it's the weaker waist in combination with the medium horns (so to speak) not the pointiest... where do you get those nice guitar silhuettes ?

 

[bobbya]

I have an ES-335 (eventually will post pix) from 1970, I think, maybe a hair later. It has the thinner neck and a trapeze tailpiece--does anyone have a guess as to when Gibstone went to the wider neck on the 335??

 

[keef]

Great thread!

I must say that I am not sure about the two or three different variants theory. Just check the ES guitars on Gbase in the mid 60s to mid 70s period - the shape of those horns seems to be all over the place, which would suggest that there was not one shape associated with a specific period.

No doubt the last 335s before the dot reissue were the ugliest ever..here are two from 1980 and 1978:

 

[keef]

Look also at this nice '73 345 with original stop tail - the shape is more like the original 3X5 series...

 

[vintage58]

vintage58: Thanks for the in-depth analysis of 335 details! These kind of threads are what make the LPF a GREAT place! :dude

Thanks for your kind words, Mike. Actually, this thread's the least I could do for all the fantastic ES series pics you've posted over the last few years!

That said, I do hope that others on the forum will continue to offer further insight into (and/or revise as necessary) my various observations, so as to finally nail down some things concerning late-1960s ES-335s. There seems to be a good deal of detailed reference material on 1950s and early-1960s models, but not nearly as much on the ones from 1968 through 1970.

 

[vintage58]

That's exactly the one I meant... but I can see it's the weaker waist in combination with the medium horns (so to speak) not the pointiest... where do you get those nice guitar silhuettes ?

The silhouettes were created in Photoshop, using photos of actual guitars that I thought were representative of a particular ES-335 body shape, and that I knew were from a particular year of production. It was a slightly tedious process, because I had to find photos that were taken perfectly head-on, and not at an angle. Basically a tremendous number of brightness/contrast adjustments and then converting to grayscale images....

 

[vintage58]

Great thread!

I must say that I am not sure about the two or three different variants theory. Just check the ES guitars on Gbase in the mid 60s to mid 70s period - the shape of those horns seems to be all over the place, which would suggest that there was not one shape associated with a specific period.

No doubt the last 335s before the dot reissue were the ugliest ever..here are two from 1980 and 1978:

One thing to take into consideration with the Gbase.com listings is that it's entirely possible that one or more sellers have a particular guitar listed as being from one year of production, when it is in fact from another year—especially with these guitars, given the overlap of serial numbers and specifications. Having looked at Gbase.com innumerable times over the last few years, I can say with a reasonable amount of certainty that it's not uncommon, for example, to see a 1969 ES-335 listed as a 1966 model. Anyway, my point is, if you look at all these guitars carefully, patterns of specs do emerge that occur only in particular years or ranges of years. Concerning the idea of body-shape variants, there is no question in my mind that the pointy cutaways are replaced by a more rounded body shape that first appears in 1968. Perhaps there are 1967 examples that have this body shape, it's just that I haven't yet seen any.

The dot-neck ES-335 that you posted appears to have the body shape that Troels was referring to—basically pointy cutaways with a lower bout that doesn't have terribly much curve to it when it dips inward toward the pickups.

In contrast, the natural-finish ES-345 that you posted appears to have the 1968 ES body-shape variant that ran throughout 1969. It looks as if that variant continued into the early 1970s, perhaps until it was replaced by the variant that Troels described. I agree with you that this variant resembles the original 1950s "Mickey Mouse"-ears body shape, but it is actually slightly different.

Anyway, even though there might be some minor variation from one guitar to another, I do think that there were points within ES series history where there the body shape changed from one whole "version" to another.

 

[Troels]

The silhouettes were created in Photoshop, using photos of actual guitars that I thought were representative of a particular ES-335 body shape, and that I knew were from a particular year of production. It was a slightly tedious process, because I had to find photos that were taken perfectly head-on, and not at an angle. Basically a tremendous number of brightness/contrast adjustments and then converting to grayscale images....

Great job

 

[TomGuitar]

Anyway, even though there might be some minor variation from one guitar to another, I do think that there were points within ES series history where there the body shape changed from one whole "version" to another.

And I agree. I also believe that the really exaggerated Mickey Mouse ears are not found on the earliest examples. I have a 58 and 59 that are not as pronounced as my 60. By the time they made my 63, they have thinned out again but not so much as the late 60's. I will try to use your Photoshop technique to create their silhouettes and add them to the thread. Probably tomorrow.

 

[vintage58]

I also believe that the really exaggerated Mickey Mouse ears are not found on the earliest examples. I have a 58 and 59 that are not as pronounced as my 60. By the time they made my 63, they have thinned out again but not so much as the late 60's. I will try to use your Photoshop technique to create their silhouettes and add them to the thread.

I've noticed this, too, in the earliest 1958 examples. And cool that you'll be posting a related 'silhouette.'

In the meantime—and for the sake of both (a) completeness; and (b) a side-by-side comparison—here's a diagram that shows all of the ES-335 body shapes that were in use between the late-1950s and the late-1970s (i.e., at least the ones that I've been able to ascertain), along with a "key"; click on the image to view a larger version:

http://www.noodledooper.net/cutaway_shapes_4.jpg

...............A — pre–"Mickey Mouse ears" shape (1958; and part of 1959, perhaps?)
...............B — "Mickey Mouse ears" shape (1959–1963)
...............C — pointy cutaways (1963–1967)
...............D — rounder cutaways (1968–1969)
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...............E — [unknown; perhaps shape "D" continues through mid-1970s?]
...............F — pointy cutaways, also upper sides of lower bout become less curved (late-1970s)
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[sliding-tom]

Great thread, vintage 58! 'twas about time someone pulled together all this info. My observations are only based on pictures for I don't have acces to original 50s and 60s guitars but from the early and even prototype 335s I have seen in books they had pointier horns than later production models. It's still a mistery why the outline has changed so much over the years - the "worn-out" jig to me is a fairy tale. Maybe they were "worn-out", then they threw them away, made new ones but not to the original specs?

 

[zorglub!]

Thanks for the info on the knobs.

I just realized that I left out one additional observation that concerns ES-335 body shapes during the aforementioned range of years, which I suppose ought to be included in this thread; I'd be curious to hear other forum members' thoughts on this subject.

Specifically, I've noticed that there seem to be two late-1960s body-shape variants, as shown below:

The left variant is the pointy shape that came after the late-1950s/early-1960s "Mickey Mouse"-ears shape. As I understand things, this variant began in mid- or late-1963. From what I've observed, it seems to have lasted until 1967. In 1968, the variant shown on the right begins to appear. It features cutaways that are slightly more rounded than those in the left variant, but not quite as rounded as the "Mickey Mouse"-ears shape. It continues throughout 1969. Not sure if the 1970 shape is exactly the same as it, but the right variant strikes me as one of the more aesthetically appealing shapes that the ES-335 has gone through.
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Thanks a lot for the very informative thread, I am just trying to date my late '60s ES-335 and would appreciate your feedback on what type of body shape it has: pointy-cutaways one (until '67) or the rounder one ('68/'69).

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[keef]

That's not so easy.

My guess would be 1967 - because of the positioning of the crown inlay. It is difficult to see if yours has a wider pickguard bevel (which changed to the smaller bevel in 1967-8). If the knobs are original (they were already on the guitar in 1977, see below) then that would be another indication of circa 1967. Witch hats came in late '67 or early '68.

Ears are all over the place, but yours are not uncommon for a '67. The shape is reminiscent of the (wrong) one used on the Clapton Crossroads 335.