Noob with a '59 ... really?

909Hemi · Feb 7, 2019

Noob with a '59 ...

Hi guys! Thanks for having me, and YES, I'm new! I'm 61, and I live in Beaumont Ca.

So... I have this guitar

The background is that it was in the 60's L.A. gig scene, and owned by Kent Henry (Blues Image/Steppenwolf). The headstock was broken and repaired in the mid-60's ... yes; the S/N was painted over... no one gave a crap about that number back then

In 1968 Kent sold the guitar to the guy I bought it from, "Billy", for $500. Kent and Billy used to do gigs together. Bill's had it all these years, I just acquired it and I'm looking for opinions/provenance/advice. Tell me what you think of it please! The guitar is dirty with patina; I don't think I'd be doing myself or anyone any favors by cleaning it, right? Are those knobs original? Why no pickguard or pickguard holes?
It did'nt have the case with it, so a new case was bought for it in 1968, the same one it's still in today. This guitar has never seen the Internet or really even any other human beings in a few decades BTW. Here she is-

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zhivago · Feb 7, 2019

Here are the photos embedded to the thread :hank

909Hemi · Feb 7, 2019

Thank you Zhivago! I also just noticed it's in a 5-latch case. zhiv

Tom Wittrock · Feb 8, 2019

909Hemi said:
Thank you Zhivago! I also just noticed it's in a 5-latch case.

It ight be a 5 latch [which means what, by the way? :hmm] but it is not from 1968 or even close to that date.

Knobs are wrong for a Custom.

What about the pickups? PAFs?
So strange things here. :wah

909Hemi · Feb 8, 2019

PAF's are correct, yes? As stated; the case did not come with the guitar originally. I only mentioned "5 latch" because they seem to be collectible on their own. No; the knobs don't match what I'm seeing on other '59 Black Beauty's.
What do you think of the pots?

Tom Wittrock · Feb 8, 2019

909Hemi said:
PAF's are correct, yes?

We cannot tell if the PAFs are correct from a photo of the tops.
Does this mean you haven't checked them? Or do you have photos of the bottoms?

909Hemi said:
As stated; the case did not come with the guitar originally.

You did state it was bought in 1968, and that case is several years [and versions] newer than that.

As for 5 latch cases , only very specific "5 latch cases" are valuable, just as the 4 latch cases from the same era are valuable.
And that's talking about only one brand [of several] used in that era.
And the "5 latch case = 1959" is a myth.

Have you had this guitar authenticated by an expert?
People on this Forum can help if you can add some detailed photos, like the pick up bottoms and rings, and the pickup cavities.

hotos

El Gringo · Feb 8, 2019

Replaced waffleback tuners along with a headstock crack and it is a mystery to me , the one clue is the triple pickup line up but that could have been a add on , it is a mystery . I would like to see the pickup cavity of the neck pickup to see what's doing with the tennon

909Hemi · Feb 8, 2019

At this point, I am extremely reluctant to break the patina on/in the screws and retainers just to look at the back of pickups that I'm certain are original. Using a magnifying glass, I was able to faintly see the filled holes for a Bigsby and yes: holes the pickguard. Billy had told me that the tuners were replaced by Carruthers Guitars (Camarillo, CA) in the 1960's.

The guitar is un-touched, just as I got it. I'm dying to wet-sand through a layer of lacquer on the top/back of the headstock to see if I can bring the serial number out :spabout I should get the guitar to Norm's but that's 2 hours away and I can't drive with this stupid Retinitis Pigmentosa thing... I'm legally blind.
I'm still fact-gathering from you guys and when I have more info I'll call Norm's and see what can be done.

none2low · Feb 8, 2019

909Hemi said:
At this point, I am extremely reluctant to break the patina on/in the screws and retainers just to look at the back of pickups that I'm certain are original. Using a magnifying glass, I was able to faintly see the filled holes for a Bigsby and yes: holes the pickguard. Billy had told me that the tuners were replaced by Carruthers Guitars (Camarillo, CA) in the 1960's.

The guitar is un-touched, just as I got it. I'm dying to wet-sand through a layer of lacquer on the top/back of the headstock to see if I can bring the serial number out :spabout I should get the guitar to Norm's but that's 2 hours away and I can't drive with this stupid Retinitis Pigmentosa thing... I'm legally blind.
I'm still fact-gathering from you guys and when I have more info I'll call Norm's and see what can be done.

I would caution you against trying to sand through the lacquer to reveal a serial number. While it may be possible, it is more than likely to lead to further damage. To my eye, it appears that it was probably stripped prior to being refinished as is evidenced by the lack of grain-filler.

MeHereNow · Feb 8, 2019

the 19th and 21st inlay are the same size?
That's mostly another indicator of a genuine 50's lp customand a detail often overlooked.

909Hemi · Feb 8, 2019

MeHereNow said:
the 19th and 21st inlay are the same size?
That's mostly another indicator of a genuine 50's lp custom and a detail often overlooked.

O-M-G! Finally a positive comment! :dude: I'm getting my info from the 70 Y/O previous owner... asking him to remember details from 5 decades ago, and HELLO: It was the SIXTIES. Finding the filled/painted Bigsby & pickguard holes was an epiphany for me, and I have questions in to him about that. This was/is a Black Beauty.

Between your guys observations and his sketchy memory, I hope to put together what this guitar is all about... that's why I'm here

I don't give 2-sh*ts about the case, so please don't waste our time with any acidic comments about it. Thanks! :spabout

The Fretless Wonder

deytookerjaabs · Feb 8, 2019

909Hemi said:
O-M-G! Finally a positive comment! :dude: I'm getting my info from the 70 Y/O previous owner... asking him to remember details from 5 decades ago, and HELLO: It was the SIXTIES. Finding the filled/painted Bigsby & pickguard holes was an epiphany for me, and I have questions in to him about that. This was/is a Black Beauty.

Between your guys observations and his sketchy memory, I hope to put together what this guitar is all about... that's why I'm here I don't give 2-sh*ts about the case, so please don't waste our time with any acidic comments about it. Thanks! :spabout
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The Fretless Wonder

Relax man, a huge point of the forum is spreading knowledge/observations regarding Les Pauls, especially ye olde Les Pauls. And, there's many folks here who know the ins/outs from major details to the tiniest quibbles.

No need to take offense if there are funky appearances which might not add up to "vintage correctness" in the photos. If something looks amiss it'd be silly not to tell ya, no???

909Hemi · Feb 8, 2019

deytookerjaabs said:
Relax man, a huge point of the forum is spreading knowledge/observations regarding Les Pauls, especially ye olde Les Pauls. And, there's many folks here who know the ins/outs from major details to the tiniest quibbles.

No need to take offense if there are funky appearances which might not add up to "vintage correctness" in the photos. If something looks amiss it'd be silly not to tell ya, no???

Right; Sorry! (ish)

I belong to a lot of forums (cars/guns/anything old), and It felt immediately harsh in here. I forgot that I am still the FNG and I have ZERO cred :lol #AllGood #HereToLearn

More info coming; I've got to pick John Carruthers' brain again...

richard henry · Feb 8, 2019

Guitar looks great. Late 50's Custom for sure. Congrats. 70's case but so what? I wouldn't touch the guitar personally. I'd get some correct knobs off eBay and stick a repro guard on and play the s*** out of it. Very cool.

Bruce R · Feb 8, 2019

A little off-topic, but I am a huge Kent Henry fan. The guy was a monster player. First saw him in '68 or so with his band "Genesis" (the LA band) in a small club in my hometown. He had that famous Burst of his, the first that I ever saw up close and in person, but it was his playing that floored me. He was right up there with the big boys. Couldn't wait to go up and talk to him and he was a really good guy. Followed him ever since then with Blues Image (Ride, Captain, Ride) and his stint with Steppenwolf (For Ladies Only). Various health issues cut his career and life way too short.

909Hemi · Feb 9, 2019

BGReed2 said:
A little off-topic, but I am a huge Kent Henry fan. The guy was a monster player. First saw him in '68 or so with his band "Genesis" (the LA band) in a small club in my hometown. He had that famous Burst of his, the first that I ever saw up close and in person, but it was his playing that floored me. He was right up there with the big boys. Couldn't wait to go up and talk to him and he was a really good guy. Followed him ever since then with Blues Image (Ride, Captain, Ride) and his stint with Steppenwolf (For Ladies Only). Various health issues cut his career and life way too short.

Right: exactly! Billy knew Kent and nothing but praise for him; both as a human being and as a musician. This Black Beauty left Kent shortly before any fame came to him.

FWIW, per previous owner Bill, quoting "There was never a pick guard on it since I owned it... Kent sometimes made adjustments to his guitars. Whatever was there when he got it I don't know but I've seen a handful of people playing this model including Keith Richards on stage and there was no pick guard on any that I've seen nor are there any on any that I've seen on Facebook nor have I ever seen a Bigsby on any of them. When I got the guitar from Kent there was 1 gold knob and 2 black ones... one was missing. Carruthers put the current knobs on there. It was'nt 50 years ago, John worked on this guitar about 5 years ago... remember I had 4 of the original tuning keys which were some kind of plastic from this very guitar which I gave him to replace the grovers that were on it but he did not use them so they ended up with what is on there now, which I assume are keys from that era... why he did'nt put the originals on, I don't understand, but I did'nt take the guitar to him. A friend of mine who knew John for a long time took it in for me. If I had picked it up, I would have had a lot of questions..." h

And from John Carruithers, just today "I don't remember it" and... " The tuners on the guitar are the ones it came with when it was made" There is a cryptic lack of information coming from John, I do not know him personally and cannot speak as to why this is. Billy on the other hand is someone I know personally and I believe him 110%. So... It Is what it Is, and this guitar has to stand on it's own merits.

Several mistakes by ME along the way relating this story with the timeline and the case situation

la BTW... Did I tell you I'm in over my head?? :spabout

pinefd · Feb 9, 2019

First of all, welcome to the forum, and congrats on a very cool guitar!

Aside from all the other comments already made about original and non-original parts, I wanted to mention...in case you're trying to determine what is, and what isn't original to the guitar...that the ABR-1 bridge appears to be non-original. It has a retaining wire on there to hold the screws and saddles in place. To my knowledge, these wired bridges did not come along until a few years after this guitar was likely built. But obviously, that's something that could be swapped out quite easily at a later date, if you so choose.

Frank

909Hemi · Feb 9, 2019

What is my '59 Black Beauty worth, given all that we now know about it?

Would these knobs be correct until I locate originals? https://www.ebay.com/itm/Gibson-Les...=item4b5bba5339:g:TV4AAOSwvSxau5pg:rk:10:pf:0

wsaraceni · Feb 10, 2019

Is it normal for the screws on the pickups to be orientated that way? From what I’ve seen both the middle and bridge look flipped. But I could be totally wrong.

brandtkronholm · Feb 10, 2019

909Hemi said:
What is my '59 Black Beauty worth, given all that we now know about it?

Would these knobs be correct until I locate originals? https://www.ebay.com/itm/Gibson-Les...=item4b5bba5339:g:TV4AAOSwvSxau5pg:rk:10:pf:0

Without pictures of the neck pickup cavity it is difficult to put any meaningful value on your guitar.

In the past five years I've seen late 50s Les Paul Customs in similar shape (full/partial refinish, non-original parts, neck break, no serial number, etc.) sell (from a dealer) for as high as $8K - but not higher. If your guitar has its original PAF pickups - and they haven't been modified - then you could add possibly another $3K or $4K or so to the value. The PAFs could be worth more ($2K each) if sold separately.

The value of fully original (no breaks) late 50s Les Paul Customs seems to be all over the place. In perfect museum quality condition they can be upwards of $70K. With some play wear the value can be as low as $15K and as high as $40K+, but these are dealer's prices. If you were to sell this guitar privately, it might sell reasonably quickly at $5-6K. With patience it could sell for $6K+ or more.

Noob with a '59 ... really?

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