Question about the rosewood issues on les pauls

[Al Russo]

Sorry if this has been asked and answered already. I seem to only find articles about Gibson having issues w/rosewood, and having to find other means and methods to use this wood. ARe other manufacturers in the same boat? I've not seen Prs, hamer etc..having to use two piece boards or other woods for fingerboards....just wondering....

 

[Elmore]

Gibson seems to have been singled out. There are theories as to why. One theory is that the workers are not unionized, and the current admnistration does not like that. Another theory is that this is just the culmination of a long investigation. Or it could be just that Gibson is the first in a line of investigations in this area, and the Feds are trying to protect the environment. I certainly do not know the truth on this one.

 

[Al Russo]

i appreciate what you're saying. The issue i don't get is y is Gibby being singled out?..Even if the Obama administration is behind this, it has to come out in the open. How do u excuse going after Gibson and not going after the others that, as i understand it, buy from the same pool of distributors...AS for the enviroment, i'm all for protecting it, but let's do things w/common sense...

 

[riffmeister]

My guess is that they are going after the biggest fish in the pond first.

 

[Cliff Gress]

Is not the LACEY act international? Perhaps Indian authorities initiated the request for an investigation?

 

[Wilko]

Other manufacturers were being careful and apparently still show clean sources. Gibson could not show clean sources, and was caught twice with enough problems that they were busted. As to why no charges have been filed, that's anyone's guess.

Forget the crap you're hearing from right wing sources as none of those are telling anywhere close to the full story.

Henry's political contributions are pretty much split right down the middle, etc.

 

[Al Russo]

Other manufacturers were being careful and apparently still show clean sources. Gibson could not show clean sources, and was caught twice with enough problems that they were busted. As to why no charges have been filed, that's anyone's guess.

Forget the crap you're hearing from right wing sources as none of those are telling anywhere close to the full story.

Henry's political contributions are pretty much split right down the middle, etc.

so what you're saying is that this isn't just the Fed picking on someone! Henry was already in a hot seat b4?...And he continued to not clean things up?....fool me once, shame on you...fool me 2x..well we all know that one...

 

[Zentar]

http://www.examiner.com/article/sen...ent-government-from-seizing-guitars-at-border

Obama and his Atty General (Eric Holder) are bad news for American manufacturers. They have also attacked fishermen and confiscated catches as well as harrassing cattle ranchers. In addition the Obama administration has tried to stop Boeing from opening their new facility in Charleston SC. Obama also refuses to let Americans build the Keystone pipelne from Canada to Texas.

These fishermen, cattle ranchers, plane manufacturers and energy companies are not using rare and endangered Rosewood.

 

[Al Russo]

http://www.examiner.com/article/sen...ent-government-from-seizing-guitars-at-border

Obama and his Atty General (Elder) are bad news for American manufacturers. They have also attacked fishermen and confiscated catches as well as harrassing cattle ranchers. In addition the Obama administration has tried to stop Boeing from opening their new facility in Charleston SC. Obama also refuses to let Americans build the Keystone pipelne from Canada to Texas.

These fishermen, cattle ranchers, plane manufacturers and energy companies are not using rare and endangered Rosewood.

i know about the boeing issue....and the pipeline...dems are not good for any business. They stifle creativity...i know that the GOP can throw caution to the wind in the opposite direction also. That's what u get when u have lawyers running a country instead of business people....let the flames begin...lol

 

[JJC]

http://www.examiner.com/article/sen...ent-government-from-seizing-guitars-at-border

An article written by a conservative in a medium that requires no fact checking and references other conservative sites. Sorry, but I can't view this with any more cred than a study by Ben and Jerry's that says 300 pounds is a healthy weight.

 

[Elmore]

I heard the latest issue was this: Gibson is allowed to import completed fretboards, but not raw materials to do it themselves. Imported shipments were labeled as completed fretboards, but the Feds found raw materials instead. Anyone else heard this?

 

[Wilko]

I've quoted the court docs on this many times.

Gibson considered the wood as completed "fingerboards" and labeled it as veneer. Gibson makes them later into "fretbopards".

SO, what the feds say is that Gibson broke the law in two ways. 1: calling it veneer (needs to be under a certain thickness) 2. knowing it was raw wood to be further worked into "fretboards"--cutting to tapered, rounded shape; cutting slots; adding frets; adding inlays; gluing to neck; adding binding, etc.

 

[Zentar]

I've quoted the court docs on this many times.

Gibson considered the wood as completed "fingerboards" and labeled it as veneer. Gibson makes them later into "fretbopards".

SO, what the feds say is that Gibson broke the law in two ways. 1: calling it veneer (needs to be under a certain thickness) 2. knowing it was raw wood to be further worked into "fretboards"--cutting to tapered, rounded shape; cutting slots; adding frets; adding inlays; gluing to neck; adding binding, etc.

Then then you are also aware that Gibson's CEO did not contribute to Obsama's campaign. That is the reason Obsama and Holder seek to destroy Gibson and silence or intimidate American citizens.

 

[Elmore]

Wilko, thanks, that makes sense. It is kind of like what I said. Then Gibson did break the law. This is saying that workers in a foreign county are allowed to create completed fretboards, but Gibson is not, true? I am trying to figure out the logic there. That sounds like forced export of labor to me.

 

[Wilko]

Zentar,
That's not exactly true. The contributions are a matter of public record, and the campaign from the right wing media on this story is easily shown to be mostly bullshit.

Henry contributes to a PAC that had a slight right wing bias for the year leading up to the raids, and a left lean the previous period.

And exactly how has "Obsama" hurt you?

 

[Pat Boyack]

Then then you are also aware that Gibson's CEO did not contribute to Obsama's campaign. That is the reason Obsama and Holder seek to destroy Gibson and silence or intimidate American citizens.

Dude, pull up your pants, your paranoia is showing.

 

[Al Russo]

how are the other guitar makers importing their rosewood?..Are they complying w/the law?....are they next in line for an assault by the rosewood police?...

 

[DANELECTRO]

how are the other guitar makers importing their rosewood?..Are they complying w/the law?....are they next in line for an assault by the rosewood police?...

If the other guitar makers are getting rosewood from India, the they too are just as guilty of breaking the law as Gibson has been accused of doing. Whether the export documents call it call it raw wood or veneer, the fact is Indian law states that exported wood over certain dimensions (fretboard blanks are large enough to fall into this category) must be finished and cannot be exported in a raw state. No piece of Indian rosewood should be leaving the country unless it is in a finished state (milled, inlays and frets installed, etc). Although this is stated in their law, it seems that the Indian government looks the other way and really doesn't care that raw blanks are exported, probably because the sale fuels the economy and generates tax revenue.

The Lacey Act (a U.S. law) states that the items imported from other countries must have been obtained within the laws of the exporting country. Thus, our government claims that since the rosewood was not exported per Indian law (even though India doesn't seem to care), that Gibson has broken U.S. laws (the Lacey act).

I don't see how any other guitar maker can possibly use Indian Rosewood unless A) The boards are finished complete, or B) they are breaking the law just as Gibson has been accused of doing. I'm certain that Fender, Martin, and PRS do not have their boards made in India, thus the answer is "B".

Granted it appears that Gibson fudged some documents by calling the blanks "veneer" rather than "raw" wood in an effort to make them appear that they comply with the Indian law, however what were their choices? Contract the manufacture of the finished boards out to a foreign country and then lay off the employees that you no longer need, or try to write the documents such that the importing of the wood falls into a gray area of the law.

Gibson gets bullied by the government, while everybody else who is doing the same thing is left alone. What's the result; The most renowned guitar manufacturer is forced to start making fretboards out of alternate materials such as baked maple and 2-ply rosewood veneer, causing an uproar with its customers, many of who bitch about the below standard materials and claim they'll never buy another Gibson. If the Feds keep it up, pretty soon guitars, just like electronics, cars, appliances, toys, machinery, software, and pretty much any other product or service you can think of will all be manufactured in foreign countries.

 

[hoss]

Others, like Fender, use way thinner Rosewood fretboards than Gibson. Up to a thickness of 6mm import is no problem.

 

[joemags54]

If the other guitar makers are getting rosewood from India, the they too are just as guilty of breaking the law as Gibson has been accused of doing. Whether the export documents call it call it raw wood or veneer, the fact is Indian law states that exported wood over certain dimensions (fretboard blanks are large enough to fall into this category) must be finished and cannot be exported in a raw state. No piece of Indian rosewood should be leaving the country unless it is in a finished state (milled, inlays and frets installed, etc). Although this is stated in their law, it seems that the Indian government looks the other way and really doesn't care that raw blanks are exported, probably because the sale fuels the economy and generates tax revenue.

The Lacey Act (a U.S. law) states that the items imported from other countries must have been obtained within the laws of the exporting country. Thus, our government claims that since the rosewood was not exported per Indian law (even though India doesn't seem to care), that Gibson has broken U.S. laws (the Lacey act).

I don't see how any other guitar maker can possibly use Indian Rosewood unless A) The boards are finished complete, or B) they are breaking the law just as Gibson has been accused of doing. I'm certain that Fender, Martin, and PRS do not have their boards made in India, thus the answer is "B".

Granted it appears that Gibson fudged some documents by calling the blanks "veneer" rather than "raw" wood in an effort to make them appear that they comply with the Indian law, however what were their choices? Contract the manufacture of the finished boards out to a foreign country and then lay off the employees that you no longer need, or try to write the documents such that the importing of the wood falls into a gray area of the law.

Gibson gets bullied by the government, while everybody else who is doing the same thing is left alone. What's the result; The most renowned guitar manufacturer is forced to start making fretboards out of alternate materials such as baked maple and 2-ply rosewood veneer, causing an uproar with its customers, many of who bitch about the below standard materials and claim they'll never buy another Gibson. If the Feds keep it up, pretty soon guitars, just like electronics, cars, appliances, toys, machinery, software, and pretty much any other product or service you can think of will all be manufactured in foreign countries.

I'm right there with ya Danelectric, have you tried buying a decent fitting pair of jeans lately? AND we invented denim.... Quality sucks....