kalamazoo vs nashville

[Mikester]

is there any difference in the quality of the guitars from each plant thanks for your time and info

This question could best be answered by those who own the LP Heritage '80 type guitars (pre-issues?). They could best compare models made from either factory, based on serial numbers.

I think (correct me) that the solid body building had basically stopped in K'zoo around 1980. Only hollow body guitars (models?) were made there afterwards. I think (speculate) that the solid body builders either: 1) moved to Nashville, 2) worked the hollow body 'lines', 3) became independent luthier's (there were very many around K'zoo, at that time), or 4) became unemployed.

I lived in Knoxville for a year before moving to K'zoo. The girls were much prettier in Knoxville (and I loved the accent). If they're just as pretty in Nashville, then I vote for Tennesee. Go Vol's!!

 

[Cheburashka]

Kalamazoo is in Michigan. Michigan is a northern state. Henry Ford started his company there, as did General Motors...and Ted Nugent lives there. The Gibson plant was there from the early 1900's up until the 80's. Gibsons' were damn-near handmade during most of that time period.

Nashville is in Tennesee, which is in the South. Al Gore is from there and he claimed to have invented the internet. He also tries to live a "carbon neutral" lifestyle. There are more mobile homes in Tennesee than Michigan. The Gibson plant has been there since the 80's and utilizes ultra-modern machinery and low-dollar labor to give you an instrument with virtually no soul.

Now, with only the facts I have given you, do you REALLY need to ask this question?

Nice "facts", and I see where you're going with this. Basically, on one hand we have:

North:

1) Henry Ford, a fascist and Nazi sympathizer is from Michigan. Known for running his assembly lines in sweat shop conditions and hiring thugs to beat the crap out of employees who tried to organize.
2) Ted Nugent, a lunatic gun nut and racist is from Michigan. Known for spouting racist diatribes about the Japanese on public radio, shooting things with his guns, and for writing a couple of catchy tunes back in the 70s.

And on the other, we have:

South:

1) Al Gore who believes that because humans are major polluters, we need to offset the waste we produce by investing in renewable energy sources.
2) Gibson guitars which are roughed out on machines and finished by hand.

So the question you are asking is:

"Would you prefer a guitar made by an insane industrialist Nazi, or would you prefer a guitar made by somebody who recycles and doesn't drive a big, gas guzzling, carbon-monoxide belching H2?"

Personally, I'd prefer the Nashville guitar. It has a better bridge that doesn't rattle. I also rest easier knowing that my money isn't going to some gun-worshipping psychopath who believes that the 19th Century Social Darwinist crap that he spews from his mouth like the filth spewing from the smokestacks in Buick City is remotely relevant or insightful.

 

[marc1kim]

This might have been posted but I scrolled thorough all the crap.

The old Kalamzoo factory is still in operation. It's now known as Heritage Guitar company, some of the old Gibson Luthiers still work there.

http://www.heritageguitar.com/company/about_us.htm

 

[AtomEve]

Speaking of Al Gore, he LOST his own home state. He WON in Michigan.
It was probably the over paid and under performing union workers that was putting Gibson under in the first place!

:biglaugh:

 

[donGrafico]

Nice "facts", and I see where you're going with this. Basically, on one hand we have:

North:

1) Henry Ford, a fascist and Nazi sympathizer is from Michigan. Known for running his assembly lines in sweat shop conditions and hiring thugs to beat the crap out of employees who tried to organize.
2) Ted Nugent, a lunatic gun nut and racist is from Michigan. Known for spouting racist diatribes about the Japanese on public radio, shooting things with his guns, and for writing a couple of catchy tunes back in the 70s.

And on the other, we have:

South:

1) Al Gore who believes that because humans are major polluters , we need to offset the waste we produce by investing in renewable energy sources.
2) Gibson guitars which are roughed out on machines and finished by hand.

So the question you are asking is:

"Would you prefer a guitar made by an insane industrialist Nazi, or would you prefer a guitar made by somebody who recycles and doesn't drive a big, gas guzzling, carbon-monoxide belching H2?"

Personally, I'd prefer the Nashville guitar. It has a better bridge that doesn't rattle. I also rest easier knowing that my money isn't going to some gun-worshipping psychopath who believes that the 19th Century Social Darwinist crap that he spews from his mouth like the filth spewing from the smokestacks in Buick City is remotely relevant or insightful.

I get your drift. So, according to your "facts", everyone in Michigan is a gun-toting NAZI and everyone in Tennessee is a self-absorbed, gass-bag tree-hugger, then even though the original question was: "is there any difference in the quality of the guitars from each plant", the real question is: "would you rather buy a guitar from this guy,

or this guy?".

Who knew guitars could be so political?

 

[jon9]

Look, As always keep politics out of the forum, please.
Mr. Gore and Mr. Nugent have nothing to do with making guitars or the question. If you want to keep things alive, then talk w/AL, he likes to do that. If you like to kill shit, talk to Ted, he enjoys doing this. :headbange

 

[curt1lp]

I have an 87 LP standard presumably made in Kalamazoo. It has none of the Norlin features that people talk about. Has a small headstock and no volute. Can't tell about the neck whether it is three piece as it's ebony painted.

Can somebody tell me what the likely structure of the guitar is. When did Norlin's change back to more vintage specs. Judging from Mazjnr's post above even 1985 when Norlin was still in charge of Gibson (his guitar sounds to be like mine).

here it is

http://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=103518&highlight=ebony+standard

 

[bramley]

Last time I looked ( a few weeks ago) the Gibson factory had a large CNC router to do solid bodies, and a few other machines... the rest was being done at stations by people .

Sure they have quota pressure, but it ain't like it's a sweat shop.

 

[MikeSlub]

This is the ultimate "apples and oranges" question, especially because timeframes and circumstances change.

When Nashville was first established, it went through growing pains as Gibson hired and trained employees and established a huge production facility. So the 70's were a challenging time in Nashville. The folks remaining in Kalamazoo had mucho experience and were doing smaller, special runs of Les Pauls and other models after Nashville opened. So during the late 70's/early 80's, as a generalization, I would say (from my experience) that the quality coming from Kalamazoo was a bit better than Nashville. But this is a subjective impression.

I have found that most of the Nashville-made LPs from the 80's are quality instruments, with excellent fit, finish, and playability.

Most believe that we are in the "golden age" of guitar manufacturing, and the overall quality of instruments coming from both the USA and Custom facilities in Nashville is generally very high. There are always exceptions, and given the high demand for Gibson guitars over the past 5-6 years there have been periods of time when quality has suffered due to higher production quotas, overtime, and hiring and training of new employees. :hank

 

[Litcrit]

There are pros and cons to mostly hand-made vs mostly machine-made instruments. What we can't argue is that hand-made costs a LOT more.

When circumstances are right, good materials are available and the labor force is well-skilled with good morale, hand-made = high quality. The overall quality of the 50's and early 60's Gibsons bear this out. If you've played ANY of them, from a Super 400 to budget line Melody Maker, the quality is quite apparent. BUT....there was a fair amount of variation between guitars, as is expected with a mostly hand-made product.
This of course changed in the Norlin era, where some of the above factors changed. Norlin instruments are still mostly well made, but the materials changes and other factors led to excessive weight, cost-cutting methods, etc. Still, most Norlin era Gibsons are professional quality instruments, and the skill of the labor force is still apparent in those instruments.

Machine-made guitars with today's computer technology are a LOT more consistent. On the higher end LP models, the wood sourcing is generally better (than with late era Kalamazoo), so with today's guitars you get a more consistent quality product, even with an arguably "less skilled" labor force (I have no real opinion about that).

Do today's guitars compare to the BEST of the vintage Golden Era?? We can debate it. They are certainly different.

Do they compare to the BEST of the Norlin Era? We can debate that too.

What's clearer is that the WORST of today's Gibsons is far better than the WORST of the Norlin era. Less variation = most guitars closer to the mean.

 

[535faultless]

There is defiantely a Kalamazoo bias out there.

People often refer to Kalamazoo employees as "Luthiers"
but people rarely refer to Nashville employees as "Lutheirs"
Why? Are there no Lutheris in Nashville?

There are some old Kalamazoo employees in Nashville, around the same # that Heritage has. I'm not 100% on the numbers but again this point is never discussed.

Kalamazoo made LP's from 52-60, and 68-85...a total of 25 years.
Nashvile has made LP's from 1975 - 2006 about 31 years. Can we give them credit for knowing how to make a LP? 31 YEARS guys!

Also, I hear so much that the Kalamazoo guitars have more "soul" because of all the hand work. The Lutheris were serious, well trained, educated, dedicated...etc. Give me a break. I once spoke to an old Kalamzoo employee (worked during the late 50's and 60's), and he told me that during Luch hour, they would go next door to the bar and have Beer drinking contests. They would see who could consume the most beer in an hour. This is probably why you hear stories of dealers having to send back instuments multiple times for repair.

I doubt the Luthiers in Nashville can get away with that these days.

To quote Billy Joel..."The good old days weren't always good"

 

[ElfinMagic]

I must be ignorant.

 

[AndyC]

I just came back from Nashville having spent last weekend at Gibson's Summerjam event. I met a guy named Jim Hutchins, who had worked in Kalamazoo, and now worked in Nashville. I asked him about change in the company over time and he didn't talk about the plants, he talked about the owners. He retired from Gibson a few years ago, but then his wife passed away and he came back. He loves the company and the people.

I met some of the finest people on the planet who happen to be employees of the Nashville plant - and some of them are our forum brothers here. I watched the processes at the Custom Shop, and visited the other Gibson facilities in Nashville. They are fine people who care about the quality they are putting out.

I asked Jim about the pressures between quality and production numbers. He said "hell no. The pressure is to put out the highest possible quality we can - we want to make the numbers, but we HAVE to make the quality".

I also spoke with Henry J for almost a half hour, plus Rick Gembar and others in management. I don't know much about the Kalamazoo days, although I have had a few guitars from that era that were good guitars. But, I feel pretty good about the state of the company right now, in Nashville.

:salude

Jim "Hutch" Hutchins

 

[Stevedenver]

wow guys politics aside

i think Mr Slub has accurately answered the question-and he knows first hand

and regardless of any romantic notion of luthiers versus factroy workers
-both locations were factorys-one as noted had more exeperienced workers for a time, and indeed more hands on finishing

-if youve ever worked in a factory-the notion of luthier probably only applied to the jazz box builders and mandolin builders- the rest were production line-with production quotas, rigid break times, overtime restrictions, available materials versus orders to be filled by a deadline-and the like

all limit, if not eliminate, the discrimination that i associate with a luthier-
this isnt meant as disrespectful to any of the guys in the plants-its just a reality-

and the hand finishing aspect is indeed due to the changes in machines

i own several kalamazoo LP guitars and i love em-

the word shibumi is what is so great in describing these guitars-they do reflect hand work, minor imperfections

-things like differences in the size of neck heels, binding thickness, carves, finishing frets, inlays, etc-and the kalamazoo norlins i own are wonderful in every regard, for my needs and appreciation of the workmanship-if i had to generalize-every kalamzoo norlin i own has good to great nuts and fret work, great materials and great wood-even if sometimes a bit heavy

i own a 1983 Nashville spotlight special-an early 'resissue' type guitar, and a production line guitar-its a great lester too-well made-cool wood, fat neck, shaws, great freats and nut and just has a great feel very much like the current reissues-i own too a JPLP from the first run-also a great guitar-but oriignally with nut issues-otherwise one heck of a production guitar with wonderful wood and an extraordinary neck

i think that all things being considered-
ask yourself this

if you were to choose a guitar on line-no 'in hand description' and no chance to play-would you trust a kalamazoo /norlin or a nashville for sheer odds on a good build?

IMHO as mentioned above-the consistency of the nashville production seems to be really high and good quality-especially that of the custom shop-your exeperience may differ but this is mine

and fwiw despite the gibson bahsing that goes on - the current company is building fine les pauls-so to me its more of an issue of used versus new -and we all know that every used guitar needs to be evaluated on its own merits and nuances

 

[Soulweb]

Wow. In retrospect, did anyone think this thread was going to go any differently than it did?

In the end, all that really matters is you're happy with what you have. Where it came from is irrelevant unless arbitrary facts that have no real bearing on how any one instrument plays is a factor for you personally. if it does, then more power to you.

 

[Bluedawg]

I just came back from Nashville having spent last weekend at Gibson's Summerjam event. I met a guy named Jim Hutchins, who had worked in Kalamazoo, and now worked in Nashville. I asked him about change in the company over time and he didn't talk about the plants, he talked about the owners. He retired from Gibson a few years ago, but then his wife passed away and he came back. He loves the company and the people.

I met some of the finest people on the planet who happen to be employees of the Nashville plant - and some of them are our forum brothers here. I watched the processes at the Custom Shop, and visited the other Gibson facilities in Nashville. They are fine people who care about the quality they are putting out.

I asked Jim about the pressures between quality and production numbers. He said "hell no. The pressure is to put out the highest possible quality we can - we want to make the numbers, but we HAVE to make the quality".

I also spoke with Henry J for almost a half hour, plus Rick Gembar and others in management. I don't know much about the Kalamazoo days, although I have had a few guitars from that era that were good guitars. But, I feel pretty good about the state of the company right now, in Nashville.

:salude

Jim "Hutch" Hutchins

I had the pleasure of touring the custom shop in '94 at the Nashville NAMM show that summer and Mr. Hutchins was our tour guide.

I'm also lucky to have a Le Grand archtop signed by Jim Hutchins in Feb '94.

:jim

 

[AndyC]

I had the pleasure of touring the custom shop in '94 at the Nashville NAMM show that summer and Mr. Hutchins was our tour guide.

I'm also lucky to have a Le Grand archtop signed by Jim Hutchins in Feb '94.

:jim

Very cool!

Jim says he started at Gibson about 43 years ago, so he's pre-Norlin, but post-Burst. He started as a janitor! But he was very handy with woodworking because of stuff he learned along the way (I think he said from his Dad, originally). He worked his way all the way up to a position he was involved in the development of signature model guitars. He would meet with various artists (like Chet Atkins was one he mentioned that he thought the world of) and get an understanding of the features they wanted on thier signature guitars. Then he would stick with that project for months as they prototyped guitars working with the artists until they were happy with the configuration.

He also mentioned BB King as an artist he had worked with, and said that BB was an incredible person, very eager to work on the instrument and very enthusiastic.

Knowing that he had been inside the company enough to perhaps have some details (I was thinking of specifics on the '68 Les Pauls, etc..) I asked him if he had documented what he recalled about the history. I think he thought I was asking about technical documentation because he talked for a while about having files upon files on all the instruments he worked on - and that he went back up to Kalamazoo and found them and brought them down to Nashville after they moved.

He didn't care much about the solidbody guitars in comparison to the archtops and semi-acoustics - so he didn't have much to share about the Les Paul evolution post - 63..

Cool guy. He loves Gibson. Nice that he's still working every week and enjoying it.

Cheers, Hutch! :salude

 

[BadAssBill]

+1 what Andy said. I was at the Gibson Summer Jam...and the facilities are now state of the art (Plek machine included). I met some incredible folks at the Gibson plant and was in awe of the process that goes into making a LP. These are not bolt on, single colored (for the most part), chunks of wood. Maple is matched...wood is picked through...the process is exhausting from a micro stand point.
Maz... Let's go....Mountaineers...(WVU 88-92)

Elfin...congrats. In my years here on the LPF, your initial post was the most ignorant one I've heard. Keep up the good work...it gives the rest of us hope.

 

[535faultless]

Count the machines, then count the people.

http://www.gibson.com/products/gibson/plant_tour/pt0.html

 

[Bluedawg]

Count the machines, then count the people.

http://www.gibson.com/products/gibson/plant_tour/pt0.html

Looks like a lot of people to me, which may be your point.

There is no machine that swallows wood and metal at one end and then spits out finished guitars at the other end.

The machine made vs hand made is silly to me. If the machines make for more consistent guitars and less human error then I'm all for it, especially if the result is a good guitar that is still reasonably affordable. Let the craftsmen and ladies do what they do best and let the machines do what they do best.

IMHO Gibson's biggest problem is their current reliance on big box stores like GC and MF. If the retailers take themself out of the QC loop then it's us the public that loses.

All IMHO of course

:hmm