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PAF's and Alnico 4: sound too "lower mid heavy" to me...

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diskolos1

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Jul 30, 2015
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My ideal PAF sound is a more modern one: think Gary Moore's Stripe 59'er. Fat but cutting and with lower mids that under some heavy gain are closer to "woody" than "muddy/shaggy".

For my tastes (especially in the neck position) Alnico 4 PAF's are simply too muddy and lower-mid-heavy with high gain.

What would you suggest? Is it possible to have the cutting power of alnico 5 without the huge bass? what about the bridge pup? Maybe alnico 5 neck and alnico 2 bridge?
 
Ad_02Std

Ad_02Std

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I agree, alnico 4s sound like that to me too. Really don't like it. I went the other way; alnico 2 neck, alnico 5 bridge. That sounds right to me. I knock the top off the bridge pickup by turning down the tone to about 8-and-a-half, but that extra cut is there if I need it. The neck pickup sounds sweet and woody.
 
goldtop0

goldtop0

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I've not got a vintage LP but the 2 and 5 work for me also neck and bridge....... in my Historics.
 
Marcel M

Marcel M

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Have you ever considered short a5's? I have a few different pairs of Throbaks with short A5's and they are my favorite. Very fat and chunky in the mid-range, but also nice bass and nice highs. Also plenty of "bite" and cuts through the mix. Its like a long a5 but just thicker in the mids. To me, this kind of embodies the more "modern sound" while still very much being a PAF.
 
C

Classic

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The challenge I have is that my 'natural' tone is already pretty bright. Doesn't matter which guitar I play. It must my technique or something. My preference is towards gear that takes away from the highs for that very reason.

Any ideas why that may be? Or is it where the treble is run on the amps (usually about 1 o'clock).

I usually end up rolling the guitar bridge tone down to 3-4 on the dial.
 
Ad_02Std

Ad_02Std

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Classic said:
The challenge I have is that my 'natural' tone is already pretty bright. Doesn't matter which guitar I play. It must my technique or something. My preference is towards gear that takes away from the highs for that very reason.

Any ideas why that may be? Or is it where the treble is run on the amps (usually about 1 o'clock).

I usually end up rolling the guitar bridge tone down to 3-4 on the dial.
Click to expand...

What type of pick do you use?
 
D

diskolos1

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LtKojak said:
Then your p'ups are not set-up right. Or your amp. Or both.

PAF footprint tone is the opposite of mud.

HTH,
Click to expand...


Well I think that I DO know how to set up my pups. Or my amp. Or both.

I know that generally PAF's are not muddy, if you read the thread's title I am asking specifically about the alnico 4 magnet. Tried 3 top notch PAF's with a4 on my Les Paul and for my tastes (especially neck position): mud/sag city.

And let me say it once again: for my tastes. One man's mud is another fat. There is not always a "player's error" or ''lack of knowledge" in someones taste.
 
LtKojak

LtKojak

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diskolos1 said:
Well I think that I DO know how to set up my pups. Or my amp. Or both. I know that generally PAF's are not muddy. Tried 3 top notch PAF's with a4 on my Les Paul and for my tastes (especially neck position): mud/sag city.
Click to expand...

Yet, here you are, complaining about "mud", after trying none less than three "Topnotch" PAFs. So, it's the p'ups fault in all three cases. How convenient! What are the odds of something like this happening, IN ALL THREE CASES, in your opinion, uh?

diskolos1 said:
I am asking specifically about the alnico 4 magnet.
Click to expand...
That's the mag most used to keep it "crispy" while reducing the "mud" and augmenting clarity with minimal output loss, usually applied to A5-loaded neck p'ups, which have a tendency of mud-out, if set-up too close to the strings... like any HB p'up, for that matter.

diskolos1 said:
Well I think that I DO know how to set up my pups. Or my amp. Or both.
Click to expand...
After re-reading the issue by your own description, I'd say "think again", if you asked me...
 
D

diskolos1

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LtKojak said:
Yet, here you are, complaining about "mud", after trying none less than three "Topnotch" PAFs. So, it's the p'ups fault in all three cases. How convenient! What are the odds of something like this happening, IN ALL THREE CASES, in your opinion, uh?


That's the mag most used to keep it "crispy" while reducing the "mud" and augmenting clarity with minimal output loss, usually applied to A5-loaded neck p'ups, which have a tendency of mud-out, if set-up too close to the strings... like any HB p'up, for that matter.


After re-reading the issue by your own description, I'd say "think again", if you asked me...
Click to expand...

Hey fellow forumite from the beautiful Milano,

No need to provoke me, we are here to discuss and celebrate our favorite guitars. It feels completely weird attacking me and trying to judge my tone-coaxing abilities or knowledge from two posts. I am a professional guitarist, I know my stuff and it just happens to find alnico 4's too nasal sounding for my tastes. If you are not finding alnico 4's nasal that's great, I wish we could grab a beer, pick our guitars and have some fun :)

BTW two of the most respected PAF builders advised me to use an alnico 5 low wind neck for the maximum "single coilish - scooped - non-mud" tone. My next experiment will probably be an alnico 5 neck - alnico 2 bridge :hank
 
Last edited:
LtKojak

LtKojak

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diskolos1 said:
No need to provoke me,
Click to expand...
Well... sorry, if it came out that way, then I apologize. That was certainly not my intention.

diskolos1 said:
two of the most respected PAF builders advised me to use an alnico 5 low wind neck for the maximum "single coilish - scooped - non-mud" tone. My next experiment will probably be an alnico 5 neck - alnico 2 bridge :hank
Click to expand...
Before I go any further: exactly what A4 p'ups sounded like mud in the neck?

If I know the winds, I might give you an alternative to the advice already given. PM me if you don't want to discuss it in public.

HTH,
 
duaneflowers

duaneflowers

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Aug 13, 2013
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diskolos1 said:
My ideal PAF sound is a more modern one: think Gary Moore's Stripe 59'er. Fat but cutting and with lower mids that under some heavy gain are closer to "woody" than "muddy/shaggy".

For my tastes (especially in the neck position) Alnico 4 PAF's are simply too muddy and lower-mid-heavy with high gain.

What would you suggest? Is it possible to have the cutting power of alnico 5 without the huge bass? what about the bridge pup? Maybe alnico 5 neck and alnico 2 bridge?
Click to expand...

IMHO I don't think there is any such thing as a modern PAF sound... the modern flavors being billed as PAFs are really not that PAFlike at all, they may look like PAFs, but they sure don't sound like the real deal... and that may explain some of your mud. Different pickups also sound different in different guitars... some guitars are just darker/moodier sounding and while original PAFs are bright enough to shine through the darkest of mud, some of the newer, more 'modern' PAF replicas are not, and this is where your pots and caps can make a huge difference.

diskolos1's formula of '500k CTS pots, NOS Vitamin Q .022 bridge and .015 neck caps, 50's wiring' is indeed the magic formula (although I prefer NOS Russian caps over VQs) with the .015 in the neck quite necessary on darker guitars (and/or muddier pickups). If several sets of pickups are responding the same way to the guitar then it might not be the magnets at all. What caps/pots are you using? Have you tried changing them? If not, I would do that before trying a new set of pickups.
 
K

korus

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I'll first presume that A4 pickups went in the same guitar. I will further presume that guitar in question conforms to a LP construction model, regardless of exact shape - mahogany neck and mahogany body with maple top, ~ 8.5-9.5lbs . Then I'll claim the following :

- IF your guitar has all 4 pots of 500K
- IF your guitar has aluminum tailpiece and steel studs for tailpiece (and not zinc tailpiece and brass studs)
- IF your guitar has brass posts for ABR-1 bridge and brass thumbwheels for ABR-1 (and not steel posts or steel thumbwheels)
- IF your A4 pickups have covers that are thin esp without (thick) copper layer underneath outer material be it nickel or chrome or gold

then your nut is plastic and most probably Corian, and you need Nylon one - use Mojo or Bartlett. Even not Corian used for guitar nuts is not one and same - the Corian used in Reissues right before the change (2009) to Nylon is especially dark (low mid heavy without hollowness Nylon gives).

Most A4 do sound somewhat nasal compared to most A2 and A5. But do not compare PAFs with modern A4 magnets to 'PAFs that have tone you like' that are in vintage Les Paul that almost certainly has all the proper hardware (and pots) listed above, hardware including and esp including the nut.

BUT if you respond that all of the above regarding hardware used is not as important as the magnet type used in PAF like pickups, then I am happy for you cause you will enjoy the search for that elusive PAF tone, the search that will never end.
 
D

diskolos1

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Jul 30, 2015
Messages
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korus said:
I'll first presume that A4 pickups went in the same guitar. I will further presume that guitar in question conforms to a LP construction model, regardless of exact shape - mahogany neck and mahogany body with maple top, ~ 8.5-9.5lbs . Then I'll claim the following :

- IF your guitar has all 4 pots of 500K
- IF your guitar has aluminum tailpiece and steel studs for tailpiece (and not zinc tailpiece and brass studs)
- IF your guitar has brass posts for ABR-1 bridge and brass thumbwheels for ABR-1 (and not steel posts or steel thumbwheels)
- IF your A4 pickups have covers that are thin esp without (thick) copper layer underneath outer material be it nickel or chrome or gold

then your nut is plastic and most probably Corian, and you need Nylon one - use Mojo or Bartlett. Even not Corian used for guitar nuts is not one and same - the Corian used in Reissues right before the change (2009) to Nylon is especially dark (low mid heavy without hollowness Nylon gives).

Most A4 do sound somewhat nasal compared to most A2 and A5. But do not compare PAFs with modern A4 magnets to 'PAFs that have tone you like' that are in vintage Les Paul that almost certainly has all the proper hardware (and pots) listed above, hardware including and esp including the nut.

BUT if you respond that all of the above regarding hardware used is not as important as the magnet type used in PAF like pickups, then I am happy for you cause you will enjoy the search for that elusive PAF tone, the search that will never end.
Click to expand...

My guitar is a 1995 Les Paul Standard birdsey (see attached picture below)

500k CTS pots, Vitamin Q caps (.022 bridge, .015 neck), 50's wiring. Replaced the tailpiece with an aluminium one (made a big difference) My guitar has a standard Nashville bridge, I never tried to replace the studs and thumbwheels and I don't know what they are made of.

What would you suggest as an upgrade for them?

 
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