Quarter vs rift vs flatsawn vintage necks - TONE??

blacksun · Aug 28, 2011

Hi!

Been searching the forums, and there are excellent posts regarding fact that vintage necks were sawn "all over the place", ie a burst, goldtop or jr could be either flatsawn, quartersawn or somewhere in between (riftsawn).

It has formerly also been discussed that quartersawn necks is probably more resistant to flexion (that's why historic necks are made this way nowadays) whereas a flatsawn guitar would be more resistant to blows from sides.

My question is have anybody noticed this difference in grain pattern to affect tone??

Out of the about 20 vintage guitars I've put my hands on the last couple of years (mostly juniors and specials though) my favorite guitars have all had flat- or next to flatsawn necks. They've generally speaking sounded more "organic" or woody if you like. :wow

Just a coincidence? What say the experts?

corpse · Aug 28, 2011

A Tonequest interview with Tim Shaw (fromerly with Gibson) who did research on old 50's- and modern instruments, says the best ones have quarter sawn necks. That's what they tried for +/- a few degrees. It takes a big tree- or alot of small ones- to yield that much wood. See the recently posted Tonequest (in the Historic section) for the Shaw interview.

58burst · Aug 28, 2011

Most of the bursts I've seen seem to be rift sawn-

blacksun · Aug 30, 2011

In Tonequest Tim Shaw claims that Gibson only bought quarted mahogny defined in the interval +/- 20 degrees, but I've also seen mostly flat and rift sawn 52-60s necks.

In the article, it is discussed that neck stiffness is an important factor for harmonics and sustain, but still the neck must be put in motion (just not too much) to affect the string vibration and harmonics.

If old growth wood (according to Gruhn) and necks are of higher quality and in it self harder perhaps that could explain the vintage magic?

I've played a couple of vintage dogs as well but the best guitars I've ever played (including on old growth replica - blasphemy here I know) have all had rift to flat sawn necks.

Anyone else thought about these grain patterns?

Joe Ganzler · Aug 30, 2011

Known about it and noticed it for several years now. Give me a NON quartersawn neck ANY day, thank you!:salude

Mountain Jam · Aug 31, 2011

Very interesting topic. Can anyone please post pics of necks with the different saw patterns.
Thanks

,
MJ

keef · Aug 31, 2011

Don't believe everything you read. Or what Tim Shaw says.

LiamH · Aug 31, 2011

I'm no expert in spotting grain patterns in mahogany, but my best sounding Junior (a '55) shows a hell of a lot of end grain on the back of the headstock. Probably also helps that it's on the light side, but it's one of the ones that everyone that picks it up hears as jaw-dropping. I'll post some pics later so a more educated person can tell us if it's rift or flat sawn. It might just be badly cut 1/4 sawn I suppose!

Liam

blacksun · Aug 31, 2011

keef said:
Don't believe everything you read. Or what Tim Shaw says.

What are your thoughts about this matter?

Checked some videos of Larry Dimarzio's Burst - a really impressive specimen, rift sawn neck judging from the back of neck...

mingus · Sep 1, 2011

Joe Ganzler said:
Known about it and noticed it for several years now. Give me a NON quartersawn neck ANY day, thank you!:salude

Yup. Me and my pal Joey have observed very few quartersawn necks on vintage Gibson guitars. My own theory is that since Gibson was a factory, they opted to cut their wood to maximize the yield, thus mostly flat/rift necks. The result seems to have worked out pretty well! :salude

keef said:
Don't believe everything you read. Or what Tim Shaw says.

. . . or what appears in Tone Quest or any other publication for that matter. It's NOT Gospel, merely an author's opinion. The fact is that we each need to find our own "tone". What works great for me may not interest the next guy at all and vice versa.

Case in point: A few years ago, TQ did an article on PAF pickups. Kim at Vintage Checkout (Historic Makeovers, etc.) supplied them with a box full of pickups to test and report on. Once Kim got the pickups back, he then sent the box of PAFs to me. I tested them at Scott Lentz's shop with Ganzler present and we came to completely different conclusions on each PAF than that contained in the TQ article. Your Mileage WILL Vary!

Tom Wittrock · Sep 1, 2011

Mountain Jam said:
Very interesting topic. Can anyone please post pics of necks with the different saw patterns.
Thanks ,
MJ

Yes please! Some one post a few definitve photos for all of us.

hotos

Diagrams might also help.

This is a great time to get this info into an easy-to-find thread for those who search this subject in the future.

Greco · Sep 1, 2011

mingus said:
Yup. Me and my pal Joey have observed very few quartersawn necks on vintage Gibson guitars. My own theory is that since Gibson was a factory, they opted to cut their wood to maximize the yield, thus mostly flat/rift necks. The result seems to have worked out pretty well! :salude

+1. They still do this as far as I'm aware.

goldTopDeluxe · Sep 1, 2011

TW59 said:
Yes please! Some one post a few definitve photos for all of us. hotos

Diagrams might also help.

This is a great time to get this info into an easy-to-find thread for those who search this subject in the future.

http://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42694

This thread has some examples.

QuirkyBurst · Sep 1, 2011

goldTopDeluxe said:
This thread has some examples.

Excellent reference - THX!

As a side note, regarding bodies as opposed to necks, I have recently come to the realization that to my ear, a flat sawn body will resonate more than quarter or rift sawn.

I have been shopping vintage SG/LPs (and snagged one! - see my avatar), but I assume this would apply equally to LP Jrs, and perhaps to a slightly lesser degree to vintage LP standards as well.

YMMV, but I am VERRRRRRRRY happy with the tone of my recently acquired '62 LP/SG!!

Tom Wittrock · Sep 1, 2011

goldTopDeluxe said:
http://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42694

This thread has some examples.

Thanks ... and here's one of the more relevant parts:

Thanks to John Catto for that photo comparison! :salude

Greco · Sep 2, 2011

I found that the picture John Catto posted just confuses the issue. You can't just look at the back of the headstock and tell that it's quartersawn as it's cut at an angle in no relation to how the blank was cut. All you can tell is that the top two are likely to be rift sawn. I have seen necks cut from blanks that would definitely be considered rift sawn turn out two necks that look like the bottom photos.

Your best bet for determining orientation is to look at the end of the tenon in the pickup cavity (not easy due to paint cover on bursts, forget goldtops, jrs, etc) or the very end of the headstock. However again the headstock end is at an angle. I highly doubt that many burst necks are completely quarter sawn.

mingus · Sep 2, 2011

Greco said:
Your best bet for determining orientation is to look at the end of the tenon in the pickup cavity (not easy due to paint cover on bursts, forget goldtops, jrs, etc) or the very end of the headstock. However again the headstock end is at an angle. I highly doubt that many burst necks are completely quarter sawn.

The best way is to look for the medullaries. :salude

MikeSlub · Sep 2, 2011

You guys got me going on this one! All three of my Burst necks appear to be rift sawn. Never paid attention to it until this thread. I always wondered why they sounded so good! :dude: :2cool Glad to know that was the right answer! :rofl :rofl :2zone

Cliff Gress · Sep 2, 2011

mingus said:
The best way is to look for the medullaries. :salude

Would you explain in greater detail?

Thanks

blacksun · Sep 2, 2011

The grain direction and the concept flat, rift and quarter sawn is not all that easy to grasp at first, John Catto posted a great pic from BOTB in that other thread, does anyone know how to put it in here?

Since the headstock is angled, usually looking at the back of the headstock can tell you about the cross section grain orientation; If the grain runs straight from the headstock - indicates quartersawn. If it runs out at greater angle - rift sawn. See post #15

Quarter vs rift vs flatsawn vintage necks - TONE??

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