Firebird Pickup Comparason

retrobob · Mar 6, 2008

I picked up a pair of 70s Firebird pickups with rings in nickle. They have stamped pat#s on the back. They are slightly larger than the 60s FB pups, as
mentioned in another thread around here.

How do these sound compared to the older 60s pickups.

How do they sound compared to a good re-issue such as the Duncan Antiquity?

retrobob · Mar 8, 2008

J45, anyone, HELP!!! Opinions needed please!

andreja marovic · Mar 11, 2008

I am very curious to hear how the 7o's Firebird PU's sound?
Besides the Medalion limited edition in 71 there were no other chrome FB pickups made.
so I presume that's what you got!!!

I have the 76-79 gold ones in my Bicentennial and they sound much better than the 1999 and on CS Reissues from mt Historic FB1.They are alnico and not ceramic magnets like the recent ones.
The Bicentenial PU's are much closer in sound to the original FB pickups.
They sound different to original series but much better than the ceramic FB PU's.

As far as I am concerned...I have ordered a Antiquity to replace the FBl Historic. I tried very hard to find original Firebird PU's but impossible.
The demand is bigger than a supply and when one points up on eBay and it's original, everybody want it.
Lot of fakes...

j45 · Mar 11, 2008

The most obvious difference right of the bat is the winding composite which differs starting with the non-reverse models taht retained the FB p/u. The differences grow much larger in the 70's. The mid-later 60's Firebird V and VII pickups (I and III have P-90's by that time) had already changed significantly from the originals. Three originals I've recently checked appear to be wound with the #42 plain enamel wire found in PAF's and PAT's until late '63, and sometimes early 1964. The mid to later 60's Firebird p/us appear to be wound with the bright orange copper wire which I think is polyurethane coated. Relatively speaking in tone from originals to the mid 60's, they would start out with at least the same relative difference a PAF and T-Top would have as far as sound goes from winding alone.

I've found out the hard way that many of the nickel "vintage " Firebird p/u's on Ebay are not vintage Firebird pickups at all. I have a couple I bought from a well known parts dealer who I don't believe participates here but does have large parts displays at the guitar shows. The are definitely NOT the same as any of my '63/'64 pickups. Neither is another I bought from ebay that was advertised as an original. Hopefully I can get enough pics and details up to end the confusion once and for all. Before I give out too much incorrect info myself, I'd like to do a little more research. What would help us is if I could get some output readings from anyone with 70's Firebirds to help with a database. I have a lot of pics but just not sure enough about the exact date of some of the pickups.

There aren't many original Firebirds much less spare p/us floating around. Seems many claims being made about originality by Ebay sellers and parts dealers are not quite right as well. If anyone has some specific information that relates directly to the original 63/64 versions, the mid to late 60's versions, as well as the 70's versions, and you are POSITIVE of the pickups's origin, I'm open to any help or correction I can receive.

Here's a rough guideline of what I've found so far. There are some things here that contradict some well known books but info in these books has not been specific about Firebirds and some authors may have mis-quoted their source. No guarantees for my own info either and will keep at it until I get it right. This, I've seen so far with my own eyes:

1963-1964 Firebird Pickups:

Two mini hum sized (nylon?) bobbins, both with rectangular mold holding what appears to be the bar magnets in slots of the bobbin so the windings are surrounding the magnet itself. No external bar magnets like a regular humbucker or Deluxe mini-hum. Black bobbin wires, enameled dark windings, thin metal plate covering both bobbins on the bottom side held with black, tar like glue. Two maple spacers between bobbins and bottom plate. No cutout for braided lead. It simply exits the pickup through the thin gap between the cover and bottom plate. PAT number sticker.

1965-1969 Firebird pickups (possibly up to 1972, not completely sure about that as of now):

Two mini hum sized (nylon?) bobbins, both with rectangular mold holding what appears to be the magnets inside of the bobbin itself so the windings are surrounding the magnet itself. No external magnets like a regular humbucker or Deluxe mini-hum. White bobbin wires, Polyurethane coated bright orange windings, thin metal plate covering both bobbins on the bottom side held with black, tar like glue. Notched cutout in base plate corner for braided lead wires. PAT number sticker.

1970's Firebird pickup ('76 Bicentennial and after?):

Two mini hum size bobbins positioned 90 degrees from original angle. Windings face upward to top of pickup. Bar magnet slipped between bobbins also 90 degrees from normal bar magnet position. Bottom plate is stamped with pat number.

The completely different configuration of the 70's Firebird pickup along with a single bar magnet turned sideways is more than likely responsible for the atypical sound of these 70's guitars. Nothing like original Firebirds IMO. I'm sure exceptions exist just like in any other Gibson guitar. We find pickup variations overlapping as many as two years in just about any model at some point in time. This is all just a starting point until I can get more info. Any corrections or additional details are welcome.

If anyone already knows everything about these mysterious p/u's please chime in. It would save me a lot of time and probably a good bit of embarrassment as well. The most sure-fire way to tell if one is an original is to simply plug it in. Compare later pickups the sound with a '63/'64 Firebird. It's a very distinct tone. It's the one thing that stays pretty consistent with original p/u's and they just don't sound anything much like later versions.

Plankspanker · Mar 12, 2008

Kerry.... I opened up one of the newer Firebird pickups with the larger sized casing and it also has two clear plastic bobbins each with a long rectangular ceramic magnet that slips into a slot in the center of each bobbin, like you describe in the earlier models, the bobbins are wound with what looks like orange #42 gauge wire, which terminates into a black insulated lead to the braided cable solder point.

There are two small wooden spacers, each holding a bobbin flush against the cover wall. The braided wire exits thru a dedicated hole in the pickup baseplate, which has stamped Pat # serial numbers. The pickup is potted with wax. When it worked it measured 7.21K Bridge position. This came off a 2002 Historic RFB1.

I have another Firebird, which is a "Guitar Trader" RFB V from 1981/82. There were advertised by Guitar Trader in Red Bank, NJ along with their special run of '59 Les Paul reissues during the same period. I've read that around 18 were made in Kalamazoo for Guitar Trader; I bought the last one from Bill there when the shop was closing in late 1986. The interesting thing about the pickups on this Firebird is they're the smaller size like the originals, but they have a stamped Pat. # on the backplate. They may be the same pickups as were used on the Medallion Firebirds. The Bridge measures around
6.9K.

shuie · Mar 12, 2008

Subscribed. This is going to be a great thread. To date, there are no real definitive writings anywhere about these pickups. Hopefully all of the gory details can be compiled here and reposted somewhere like the cfh website or maybe in the next printing of a Duchossoir type book.

j45 · Mar 12, 2008

Plankspanker said:
Kerry.... I opened up one of the newer Firebird pickups with the larger sized casing and it also has two clear plastic bobbins each with a long rectangular ceramic magnet that slips into a slot in the center of each bobbin, like you describe in the earlier models, the bobbins are wound with what looks like orange #42 gauge wire, which terminates into a black insulated lead to the braided cable solder point.

There are two small wooden spacers, each holding a bobbin flush against the cover wall. The braided wire exits thru a dedicated hole in the pickup baseplate, which has stamped Pat # serial numbers. The pickup is potted with wax. When it worked it measured 7.21K Bridge position. This came off a 2002 Historic RFB1.

I have another Firebird, which is a "Guitar Trader" RFB V from 1981/82. There were advertised by Guitar Trader in Red Bank, NJ along with their special run of '59 Les Paul reissues during the same period. I've read that around 18 were made in Kalamazoo for Guitar Trader; I bought the last one from Bill there when the shop was closing in late 1986. The interesting thing about the pickups on this Firebird is they're the smaller size like the originals, but they have a stamped Pat. # on the backplate. They may be the same pickups as were used on the Medallion Firebirds. The Bridge measures around
6.9K.

Hi Robert, yes I understand. They do have somewhat of a similar appearance. I've had several Custom Shop Firebirds as well as a standard production recently. The pickups in one sounded extremely good. They sounded nothing and I mean nothing like a original Firebird. Could have just as well been a Rickenbacker compared to a Fender. Not a bad thing, they can sound really good. Even though they have the physical appearance, they have nothing in common with a 63/64 p/u in sound. Most of it I'm sure is due to the composite difference in the winding. Still, they are so far off in sound they might as well be a P-90. Again, this is not a bad thing. My Custom Shop Cardinal Red Firebird I sounded as fat and rich as any Historic R9 I've heard, maybe better than most. Sounded much more like a Les Paul than a Firebird, though.

This may be for a reason. It seems the majority do prefer a Les Paul tone. The original Firebird can be very trying if you have an amp or music that is not right for it. It's a very unorthodox sound, can actually be pretty bad if you have a below average example and the wrong amp choice. They are much more picky about their circumstances than a Les Paul. Maybe Gibson is trying to make a pickup for the Firebird that is more readily usable to the masses. I love original Firebirds for their quirks a lot like those who love varitones. I like to keep a Varitone guitar for the effects but it's a lot easier to plug in and play a 345 on any amp and get a good sound without the VT. Same with the Firebird. The old ones have a unique, distinct voice certainly not what you'd expect from a Gibson and may not be for everybody. The new Custom Shop pickups I've heard sound more "Gibson" in a traditional way to me. Nevertheless, I've found a combination with my '63 Firebird V and a '63 AC30 that is so unique I can't get enough of it. They can give you a sound that can set you apart if you are willing to work with them.

Birdy · Mar 12, 2008

Thread o' the month :dude:

Great info guys !

le

abalonevintage · Mar 12, 2008

I love original Firebirds for their quirks a lot like those who love varitones.

Wow, a Firebird with a varitone? :ganz Just another idea to keep me from sleeping... :rofl

retrobob · Mar 13, 2008

The ones I have are exactly like these. Nickle with stamped pat #s on back.
They read out about 15-20k instead of 7k like the older ones. They are also slightly larger in size as mentioned.

http://cgi.ebay.com/GIBSON-FIREBIRD...ryZ41429QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

trioderob · Mar 13, 2008

SO DID ANYONE COME UP WITH OHM READINGS
ON THE VINTAGE FIREBIRD PUPS?

:2zone

shuie · Mar 13, 2008

Im pretty sure this is a '70s pickup since it has the patent number stamped on the bottom of the baseplate. Both coils have iron slugs in their centers and are turned 90 degrees upright sandwiching a bar magnet (also turned 90 degrees upright) between them. Pretty efficient use of space, but a bizarre design compared to the earlier pickups or a normal humbucker.

j45 · Mar 13, 2008

trioderob said:
SO DID ANYONE COME UP WITH OHM READINGS
ON THE VINTAGE FIREBIRD PUPS?

:2zone

Vintage originals read around 6.5k average some higher some lower. I'll double check that. I've read so many lately it's a blur. Here's an example of the second version that began in 1965, possibly as early as mid '64.

http://cgi.ebay.com/1967-gibson-fir...oryZ7266QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

The bottom plate is notched out in the top left corner for the braided lead to exit. The original '63/64's (I've seen so far) are perfectly rectangular and the wire slips between the cover and bottom plate. These will sound quite different than the '63/'64 pickups. Also notice what appears to be a white bobbin wire on the far side by the mounting ear. This p/u is wound with T-Top type wire as opposed to the enamel maroon PAF type of the earlier pickups. You already have a significant change in sound by '65.

shuie · Mar 13, 2008

This is not really relevant to the discussion of the vintage pickups, but here is a current Gibson pickup. The magnets serve dually as the slugs inside the coils on these. This is a bridge pickup out of a current FB VII with a DC resistance of over 25k :bug.

andreja marovic · Mar 13, 2008

j45 said:
The most obvious difference right of the bat is the winding composite which differs starting with the non-reverse models taht retained the FB p/u. The differences grow much larger in the 70's. The mid-later 60's Firebird V and VII pickups (I and III have P-90's by that time) had already changed significantly from the originals. Three originals I've recently checked appear to be wound with the #42 plain enamel wire found in PAF's and PAT's until late '63, and sometimes early 1964. The mid to later 60's Firebird p/us appear to be wound with the bright orange copper wire which I think is polyurethane coated. Relatively speaking in tone from originals to the mid 60's, they would start out with at least the same relative difference a PAF and T-Top would have as far as sound goes from winding alone.

I've found out the hard way that many of the nickel "vintage " Firebird p/u's on Ebay are not vintage Firebird pickups at all. I have a couple I bought from a well known parts dealer who I don't believe participates here but does have large parts displays at the guitar shows. The are definitely NOT the same as any of my '63/'64 pickups. Neither is another I bought from ebay that was advertised as an original. Hopefully I can get enough pics and details up to end the confusion once and for all. Before I give out too much incorrect info myself, I'd like to do a little more research. What would help us is if I could get some output readings from anyone with 70's Firebirds to help with a database. I have a lot of pics but just not sure enough about the exact date of some of the pickups.

There aren't many original Firebirds much less spare p/us floating around. Seems many claims being made about originality by Ebay sellers and parts dealers are not quite right as well. If anyone has some specific information that relates directly to the original 63/64 versions, the mid to late 60's versions, as well as the 70's versions, and you are POSITIVE of the pickups's origin, I'm open to any help or correction I can receive.

Here's a rough guideline of what I've found so far. There are some things here that contradict some well known books but info in these books has not been specific about Firebirds and some authors may have mis-quoted their source. No guarantees for my own info either and will keep at it until I get it right. This, I've seen so far with my own eyes:

1963-1964 Firebird Pickups:

Two mini hum sized (nylon?) bobbins, both with rectangular mold holding what appears to be the bar magnets in slots of the bobbin so the windings are surrounding the magnet itself. No external bar magnets like a regular humbucker or Deluxe mini-hum. Black bobbin wires, enameled dark windings, thin metal plate covering both bobbins on the bottom side held with black, tar like glue. Two maple spacers between bobbins and bottom plate. No cutout for braided lead. It simply exits the pickup through the thin gap between the cover and bottom plate. PAT number sticker.

1965-1969 Firebird pickups (possibly up to 1972, not completely sure about that as of now):

Two mini hum sized (nylon?) bobbins, both with rectangular mold holding what appears to be the magnets inside of the bobbin itself so the windings are surrounding the magnet itself. No external magnets like a regular humbucker or Deluxe mini-hum. White bobbin wires, Polyurethane coated bright orange windings, thin metal plate covering both bobbins on the bottom side held with black, tar like glue. Notched cutout in base plate corner for braided lead wires. PAT number sticker.

1970's Firebird pickup ('76 Bicentennial and after?):

Two mini hum size bobbins positioned 90 degrees from original angle. Windings face upward to top of pickup. Bar magnet slipped between bobbins also 90 degrees from normal bar magnet position. Bottom plate is stamped with pat number.

The completely different configuration of the 70's Firebird pickup along with a single bar magnet turned sideways is more than likely responsible for the atypical sound of these 70's guitars. Nothing like original Firebirds IMO. I'm sure exceptions exist just like in any other Gibson guitar. We find pickup variations overlapping as many as two years in just about any model at some point in time. This is all just a starting point until I can get more info. Any corrections or additional details are welcome.

If anyone already knows everything about these mysterious p/u's please chime in. It would save me a lot of time and probably a good bit of embarrassment as well. The most sure-fire way to tell if one is an original is to simply plug it in. Compare later pickups the sound with a '63/'64 Firebird. It's a very distinct tone. It's the one thing that stays pretty consistent with original p/u's and they just don't sound anything much like later versions.

KERRY, ROBERT,SHUIE,
BOYS GREAT INFO HERE FROM YOU.
I WILL MESURE MY 3 FIREBIRDS AND SEND YOU THE NUMBERS.
It may take some time because I don't own a meter...but will borow one for the occason.

It would also be of help that Kerry and Robert could post some pics of desincasted FB PU's.
A great photo could save lot of words....
My English is not so good that I could understand all the finesses of the words and pics speak all the idiomas.:welcome

So: photos please.
We all love those birds in one way or another...
Peace,
Andreja

retrobob · Mar 15, 2008

j45 said:
Vintage originals read around 6.5k average some higher some lower. I'll double check that. I've read so many lately it's a blur. Here's an example of the second version that began in 1965, possibly as early as mid '64.

http://cgi.ebay.com/1967-gibson-fir...oryZ7266QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

The bottom plate is notched out in the top left corner for the braided lead to exit. The original '63/64's (I've seen so far) are perfectly rectangular and the wire slips between the cover and bottom plate. These will sound quite different than the '63/'64 pickups. Also notice what appears to be a white bobbin wire on the far side by the mounting ear. This p/u is wound with T-Top type wire as opposed to the enamel maroon PAF type of the earlier pickups. You already have a significant change in sound by '65.

J45,
Whats with the pole pieces on the ebay 67 pickup?
I saw that auction and discounted it as a mini humbucker with a Firebird cover.

sixty2strat · Mar 15, 2008

Anyone know how the Duncans are built, like the atntiquities or the regular

j45 · Mar 15, 2008

retrobob said:
J45,
Whats with the pole pieces on the ebay 67 pickup?
I saw that auction and discounted it as a mini humbucker with a Firebird cover.

Man, I'm having a bad day. Reminds me of the Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson camping trip joke. There should not be any pole pieces. I looked in the corner to see if it had the notch for the braided wire and white bobin leads like other late 60's. Never even noticed the pole pieces. Never seen this on any FB p/u as of yet. You may be right about this. Thanks for pointing it out. Unless there was some transition period around late '69 when they doubled up with the Deluxe mini and Firebird cover to use the same pickup. It's going to take a while to eliminate all questionable possibilties and document actual original exceptions.

rossl56 · Mar 18, 2008

I put a set of Lollar FB's in my reissue. According to Jason the reissue's are more like a mini humbucker. His are built like the originals. He only makes one version he said you can't fit overwound bobbins because of the construction.

Lollar's compare to reissue, much clearer, more high end (sweet highs), more responsive (better dynamics). Guitar sounds like a tele on massive steriods 1000 times better than stock.

I never played an original Firebird, but I use mine A LOT more now with these pickups, I would recommend them. I did leave the 300k pots in the guitar because the bridge is a little bright, I just roll the tone control down to 7 or 8 and it is great. Neck is fine nice woody tone

http://www.lollarguitars.com/

Plankspanker · Mar 18, 2008

"I put a set of Lollar FB's in my reissue. According to Jason the reissue's are more like a mini humbucker. His are built like the originals. He only makes one version he said you can't fit overwound bobbins because of the construction."

Lollars are great pickups, but his FB model uses a larger case like the new ones, the Seymour Duncan Antiquity is the same size as the originals. The Lollar FB pickup I had also had 4 wire leads instead of a braided 2 conductor.

Firebird Pickup Comparason

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