Vintage 335 neck angles

TomGuitar · Jan 9, 2007

In another thread, a question arose about the shallower neck angles on early 335s. On many 58 and 59 335s, the neck angle is shallow enough to require a slimmer or shaved ABR-1 in order to get the action where modern players like it. Below is a pic of the bridge heoght on a 58, 2-59's, a 60, and a 61. The second 59 is the only one with a shaved ABR-1, which you should be able to see easily, paerticularly on the treble side. On all the others the ABR-1 is normal, but you can see that the 60 and 61 don't need to be down as close to the body as the earlier ones. All of these guitars sound great and I don't think their tonal differences are in any way due to the different neck angles. Just thought I'd post it as an FYI.

RickN · Jan 9, 2007

Good stuff, Tom.

Different question, since you've got all those guitars laying on the floor...

Have you noticed any pattern or trend regarding the neck pickup ring being installed with the taller side next to the fingerboard? I've heard (more than seen for myself) that sometimes the factory installed the neck pickup with the ring spun around. The logic, I'm told, is to try to help the neck pickup sit more parallel to the strings.

What have you seen?

j45 · Jan 9, 2007

You're playing with flats??

TomGuitar · Jan 9, 2007

mofinco said:
Good stuff, Tom.

Different question, since you've got all those guitars laying on the floor...

Have you noticed any pattern or trend regarding the neck pickup ring being installed with the taller side next to the fingerboard? I've heard (more than seen for myself) that sometimes the factory installed the neck pickup with the ring spun around. The logic, I'm told, is to try to help the neck pickup sit more parallel to the strings.

What have you seen?

Only one of mine was that way. A 63. And there is no telling whether it originally shipped that way.

j45 said:
You're playing with flats??

Must be the pic. These are all round.

j45 · Jan 9, 2007

TomGuitar said:
Only one of mine was that way. A 63. And there is no telling whether it originally shipped that way.

Must be the pic. These are all round.

Yeah, must have lost focus.. they look smooth.

C-4 · Jan 9, 2007

All of the neck angles on those guitars pictured are very low angles. The newer ES guitars have a lot more space under the bridge then any of these guitars have.
Personally, I love a low bridge with a shallow neck angle, but it is harder to find these today.

LowE · Jan 9, 2007

What 12th-fret string heights were you able to achieve on these guitars?

TomGuitar · Jan 9, 2007

LowE said:
What 12th-fret string heights were you able to achieve on these guitars?

I have never measured my string heights.

I use .011-.050 strings and I do my own set-ups, but by feel and sound, not numbers. Since the frets themselves are different heights due to 45+ years of use, some have been dressed, and one refretted, I just try to tune in to the characteristics of each guitar and get them to play the way the guitar wants to be. Each one is a little different.

Same with neck relief, pickup height, polepiece height, and tailpiece height. Each guitar seems to want slightly different setups to play and sound its best. I just work all those variables until I like what I am hearing and feeling.

I gaurantee you that all these guitars play and sound great.

sliding-tom · Jan 9, 2007

Thanks for these great infos, Tom, especially on the non-existant tonal differences - I've always wondered if a different neck angle would make much of a difference in the tone of ES 335 type guitars.

LowE · Jan 9, 2007

OK thanks - I was asking because there's a '59 335 I'm considering now and it hasn't been set up in many years. Its abr1 is set rather high and the high-E at the 12th fret is 6/64" as opposed to modern Gibson spec of 3/64". I was asking you the question to get a sense of what's realistic on 58-60 335's. But I understand your approach, if the guitar feels great, the numbers are meaningless.

TomGuitar · Jan 9, 2007

sliding-tom said:
Thanks for these great infos, Tom, especially on the non-existant tonal differences - I've always wondered if a different neck angle would make much of a difference in the tone of ES 335 type guitars.

There may be some tonal differences due to the neck angle, it's just difficult to tell when there are so many variables. For example, the 58 has by far the "woodiest" tone. It also has a very shallow angle with the ABR-1 right down on the face of the instrument. Is that why? I can't really say.

LowE said:
OK thanks - I was asking because there's a '59 335 I'm considering now and it hasn't been set up in many years. Its abr1 is set rather high and the high-E at the 12th fret is 6/64" as opposed to modern Gibson spec of 3/64". I was asking you the question to get a sense of what's realistic on 58-60 335's. But I understand your approach, if the guitar feels great, the numbers are meaningless.

Ralph, I'll take some measurements tonight. My guess is that 3/64" is quite achievable on old ones even with the shallow angle. I'll check them tonight.

bern1 · Jan 9, 2007

Agreed that there are many variables, but I believe that in any guitar (acoustic or electric) the neck angle does make a difference in the sound. In my experience, a shallow neck angle seems to equate with a more "woody" or resonant tone, whereas a steeper neck angle with a higher bridge produces a more lively and brighter tone. My conclusion is the result of 30 years of observation and I would be curious to know if the science of "transitional vibration theory" would back that up or refute that conclusion. I'm definitely not a scientist, anybody else?

plaintop60 · Jan 9, 2007

Well I sure am not a scientist of any kind, but I have about 40 years worth of observations that I can offer. I agree with your assesment that neck angle and particularly bridge height affects tone with the lower angle producing a more woody sound. My own theory on this is that the break angle over the bridge to the tailpiece is probably the biggest factor. I have found that guitar with a steeper angle and a higher bridge can be warmed up quite alot by raising the tailpiece. Of course in doing so you trade brightness and sustain for warmth and resonance. Just my observations....no science here.

TomGuitar · Jan 10, 2007

LowE said:
OK thanks - I was asking because there's a '59 335 I'm considering now and it hasn't been set up in many years. Its abr1 is set rather high and the high-E at the 12th fret is 6/64" as opposed to modern Gibson spec of 3/64". I was asking you the question to get a sense of what's realistic on 58-60 335's. But I understand your approach, if the guitar feels great, the numbers are meaningless.

I measured them all tonight. They all are between a hair over 3 and a hair over 4/64. And all could be lower, even with the strings I use (.011's), let alone if you use .010's. But they are where they feel right to me for each instrument.

Bottom line is that there is no reason you can't achieve modern spec action on an old one, at least the ones I can vouch for.

DANELECTRO · Jan 10, 2007

For comparison, here is my '66 335 (stoptail conversion). The action is set fairly low at 5/64" on the bass side and 3/64" on the treble side. It looks like this bridge is about 1/16" higher than than the '58-'61 bridges pictured above. This would equate to about a 1/2° difference in neck angles.

bern1 · Jan 11, 2007

TomGuitar said:
There may be some tonal differences due to the neck angle, it's just difficult to tell when there are so many variables. For example, the 58 has by far the "woodiest" tone. It also has a very shallow angle with the ABR-1 right down on the face of the instrument. Is that why? I can't really say.

Tom Guitar, I would bet that is indeed why. As you say there are so many variables, but I've noticed it before, specifically on ES335's, but I'm sure it's valid on many guitars.

In 1979 I bought a 58 ES335 and a week later a 1959. I still remember the 58 had that woody sound you are talking about, much more so than the 59. The 58 had a huge neck and had been refretted, so that may not have been the best comparison, but you compare what you've got in any case.

TomGuitar · Jan 11, 2007

bern1 said:
Tom Guitar, I would bet that is indeed why. As you say there are so many variables, but I've noticed it before, specifically on ES335's, but I'm sure it's valid on many guitars.

In 1979 I bought a 58 ES335 and a week later a 1959. I still remember the 58 had that woody sound you are talking about, much more so than the 59. The 58 had a huge neck and had been refretted, so that may not have been the best comparison, but you compare what you've got in any case.

I am not completely convinced that the angle is the most significant factor. I still think its one of many. If neck angle were paramount, then the 58 and both 59's should be pretty close in woodiness. Don't get me wrong, they all have some tytpical 335 woodiness, but the 58 has much more than the 2 59's. The 61 is actually slightly more woody than the 59s and I have a 63, not pictured, which has a much steeper angle and tons more woodiness than the 59's.

I just think that there are no absolutes when it comes to tone differences.

MikeSlub · Jan 11, 2007

TomGuitar said:
I just think that there are no absolutes when it comes to tone differences.

:dude:

bluesjuke · Jan 15, 2007

sliding-tom said:
Thanks for these great infos, Tom, especially on the non-existant tonal differences - I've always wondered if a different neck angle would make much of a difference in the tone of ES 335 type guitars.

Yeas, thanks. I had recently wonder the same.

Vintage 335 neck angles

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