To Grover, or Not to Grover

67SLP · Sep 17, 2017

Big Al said:
I think Grovers look very right on Les Pauls. Just about every vintage LP I saw on stage in the 60's & 70's, from Allmans to Zep had Govers. They work better and sound better as well as look better.

If you are a player interested in a musical instrument, over wall art or vintage spec obsessed replica collecting, the added utility may prove a useful and welcome improvement. Like bone or other nut upgrades, upgraded pickups, custom taper pots, upmarket caps or any other choice an owner may choose to make to their own instrument.

In over 40 years of buying and selling gear, Grovers on a Les Paul has never been an issue. The important thing is to have them installed professionaly and be clear why, as though it may be reversed, it will leave washer marks on the front of the peg head. Not something to do on a whim.

Big +1 to all of this.

Big Al · Sep 17, 2017

Sparta said:
Hey friend Al,

I will make a note to throw one of each on a digital scale and bounce back to you in the next day or so.

Have to run right now, but I would bet they are within fractions of a gram, maybe even the margin of error between weighing events.

See you,

Oh lord o, brother! I don't need a precise weight, I just need to if they are noticeably heavier, as added headstock mass often has a positive tonal benefit, ime. I would like your impressions of their function, if possible. Tight, smooth, stability and that stuff.

Sparta · Sep 17, 2017

Hey Al,

No problem at all. I just swapped out a set tonight.

Both the originals off a TH and the Kluson Supremes weigh in at 22 grams.

Zero mods required.

They Say Kluson Supreme on the backs, where you would normally see Kluson Deluxe.

Double line.

Part Number - KTS90SLN.

Big Al · Sep 17, 2017

Sparta said:
Hey Al,

No problem at all. I just swapped out a set tonight.

Both the originals off a TH and the Kluson Supremes weigh in at 22 grams.

Zero mods required.

They Say Kluson Supreme on the backs, where you would normally see Kluson Deluxe.

Double line.

Part Number - KTS90SLN.

Brother Sparta, I AM AN IIEEEEEEEDIOT!!!!!!!:##:##:##

Now I see where I got so confused. The Kluson's I was talking about were the die cast Revolution type, DOH!:laugh2::##:##:##:rofl

Sparta · Sep 18, 2017

Hey Al,

Glad we got that straight then.

The little I know about those, I would highly expect that yes, they have more mass.

How much more, I could only guess.

Maybe there is a product spec sheet on their site. At least we know the "regulars" are 22 grams.

I recall reading Dan Erlwine (spelling?) writing in a book that even the wafflebacks have more mass, and in his opinion that did have some impact on sound.

There is a lot of voodoo opinion in the guitar world that gets spoken as absolute scientific fact, but I would tend to give that guy credence right out of the gate.

renderit · Sep 18, 2017

Sparta said:
Hey Al,

Glad we got that straight then.

The little I know about those, I would highly expect that yes, they have more mass.

How much more, I could only guess.

Maybe there is a product spec sheet on their site. At least we know the "regulars" are 22 grams.

I recall reading Dan Erlwine (spelling?) writing in a book that even the wafflebacks have more mass, and in his opinion that did have some impact on sound.

There is a lot of voodoo opinion in the guitar world that gets spoken as absolute scientific fact, but I would tend to give that guy credence right out of the gate.

Pretty sure they do. I'll weigh one if you want, I have a set from a 68 or 9 custom...

1jamman · Sep 19, 2017

IMO , Grover's have better tuning stability and for that they ae worth doing the mod ,if it's an important factor for you . Depends on what you're doing with it . Play pro , then it's most likely a very important issue .

I have a set of the Klusons Big Al was talking about . On my ES-356(from 2009) . They use the same sized hole as Grover's (IIRC 10mm , I test swapped 1 tuner to check) but appear has regular Klusons . Strangely enough these Klusons have ~ the same tuning stability as Grover's (from my exp.)

It would be great if Grover made a direct swap(shaft diameter) with Klusons . I'd be buying a few sets of those . The Kidney bean tuning head , imo looks better on a LP then the single ring tips on 59 LP ri's ....

Kevin L. · Sep 22, 2017

Thank you all for the great feedback. I've been out of town for a week. Will pursue this now. I think a change is coming.

eternalpurple · Sep 24, 2017

If you need to make the holes bigger, HELL NO! If you simply must change the tuners find some that require no alterations the the guitar.....at all.

Big Al · Sep 24, 2017

eternalpurple said:
If you need to make the holes bigger, HELL NO! If you simply must change the tuners find some that require no alterations the the guitar.....at all.

Why? Is there some sacred taboo involving peg head hole size? Are there some kind of secret society mumbo jumbo rules on acceptable alterations? Need one seek permission to make an alteration and who grants it?
HELL NO! Really?

renderit · Sep 25, 2017

You have my permission. ...............................................................................................................Now go out in the world and convert them...

..............................................Betcha I can beatcha in DOMINOS...

MeHereNow · Sep 26, 2017

All my Lp's have Grover rotomatics 18:1 ratio.
Better tuning stability, smooth operating and i don't have to worry bout tuner buttons cracking/shattering as i did experience more than once with the keystone plastic button tuners.
a bit of woodwork is neccesary, but you don't have to drill all the way through the headstock.
You drill from the back of the headstock's original holes about 9mm into the wood with a 10mm reamer bit, this way the grover inserts will fit, so you only drill the depth of the inserts.
The screw bushings fit trough the original holesize you left at the front, no further modification needed, and so if ever needed, you can install the original push-in kluson bushings again.
Be aware if doing so, the washers of the grovers will mostly leave some circulair 'bitemarks' in the finish.

eternalpurple · Sep 26, 2017

Big Al said:
Why? Is there some sacred taboo involving peg head hole size? Are there some kind of secret society mumbo jumbo rules on acceptable alterations? Need one seek permission to make an alteration and who grants it?
HELL NO! Really?

Well no.... one does not need to seek permission from anyone let alone some secret society to alter their own guitar. To include hollowing it out and dropping a resonator cone in it. That is his business. But he ask for advice and I answered as did you. I just don't understand why anyone would pay significantly more money for a guitar that replicates a specific time period to a T only to start changing it...........That after all is why God in his great wisdom made Fenders

Big Al · Sep 26, 2017

eternalpurple said:
Well no.... one does not need to seek permission from anyone let alone some secret society to alter their own guitar. To include hollowing it out and dropping a resonator cone in it. That is his business. But he ask for advice and I answered as did you. I just don't understand why anyone would pay significantly more money for a guitar that replicates a specific time period to a T only to start changing it...........That after all is why God in his great wisdom made Fenders

Well that's the thing. Not everyone that buys an Historic is seeking a 1959 showroom clone or believes the state of art guitar performance ended in 1960. Those that do have the option of leaving them as is and enjoying them accordingly.

Many others, not unlike the majority of the pro players who rediscovered this failed discontinued model in the late 60's and 70's, didn't hesitate to modify and upgrade components deemed insufficient. Chief among those on vintage Bursts was the upgrade from crappy stock Klusons to sealed die cast Grovers.

As these are not vintage $300,000 vintage collectable instruments but pro grade new musical instruments, as well as 50's reissues, musicians who would like a 50's build spec guitar to play have a realistic and affordable option for players.

Just as before present day players will upgrade their guitars to provide greater utility and improved performance. Just a the fanatical 50's time tripper will mod with uber vintage cloned parts, some made to simulate decades of age.

What I was goofing on was your emphatic all caps, "HELL NO!". Something I find funny.

eternalpurple · Sep 26, 2017

Big Al said:
Well that's the thing. Not everyone that buys an Historic is seeking a 1959 showroom clone or believes the state of art guitar performance ended in 1960. Those that do have the option of leaving them as is and enjoying them accordingly.

Many others, not unlike the majority of the pro players who rediscovered this failed discontinued model in the late 60's and 70's, didn't hesitate to modify and upgrade components deemed insufficient. Chief among those on vintage Bursts was the upgrade from crappy stock Klusons to sealed die cast Grovers.

As these are not vintage $300,000 vintage collectable instruments but pro grade new musical instruments, as well as 50's reissues, musicians who would like a 50's build spec guitar to play have a realistic and affordable option for players.

Just as before present day players will upgrade their guitars to provide greater utility and improved performance. Just a the fanatical 50's time tripper will mod with uber vintage cloned parts, some made to simulate decades of age.

What I was goofing on was your emphatic all caps, "HELL NO!". Something I find funny.

Understood.......I think a lot of how we see it has to do with there purpose in our lives. I am not now nor have I ever been a professional musician. If I was and I choose a particular guitar to use I would most certainly want to tune it and darn sure want it to stay there. I personally would find something that would fit the original holes. Unless of course I found out they were all junk. Then I would do what you did..........And a good day to you

El Gringo · Sep 26, 2017

Okay , when it comes to my R9 which has Klusons that's that .But my Gibson Les Paul Custom which has Grovers I have to admit that the Grovers stay in tune better .I played both the R9 and the Custom over the weekend and it was not even close .To me visually which I am the first to admit that I am anal about how it looks the Grovers are a better gear .I also have the Grovers on my Martin D-41 .

Big Al · Sep 26, 2017

eternalpurple said:
Understood.......I think a lot of how we see it has to do with there purpose in our lives. I am not now nor have I ever been a professional musician. If I was and I choose a particular guitar to use I would most certainly want to tune it and darn sure want it to stay there. I personally would find something that would fit the original holes. Unless of course I found out they were all junk. Then I would do what you did..........And a good day to you

Let me clear, I find nothing at all questionable about the strong desire to have as accurate as possible, a 50's Les Paul replica, because they have become so iconic, for so many. Myself included. That damn Beauty of the Burst and Vic's three volume Bursts Believers have fueled the flames of Burst desire to hellish levels.:bug

I make no judgments on any motivations, methods or mania on anyones choice of personal perfection in appearance or performance regarding these incredible musical instruments. Functional Art of the highest order.

I do not endorse the notion that working musicians, or fluent players have purer or greater claims or motives in owning these guitars. Just different, that is all.

I like to goof on things I find funny. I know you don't represent some Burst Reissue Cabal uttering decrees about what is acceptable or allowed. I'm a miserable old fart that likes to goof on absolute statements or things I just find funny. I live in a world of goofy shit and believe that most men recognize the power of the goof.

Thank you for getting that and allowing me a chuckle.:laugh2::hank:hank:hank

mdubya · Sep 26, 2017

I have Gibsons with Grovers and Gibsons with White Button Klusons. And I have had Gibsons with Keystone Klusons. I prefer to leave them with whatever they came with stock. Any tuning issues are almost always the nut. Lube of choice fixes that.

The only time I have added Grovers is when I broke tuning keys on low ceilings while practicing or gigging and I needed a replacement, ASAP, and Grovers were all I could find.

If Grovers are your thing, go for it. As someone who shops used gear somewhat regularly, I would find a tuning key change to be a downgrade. If the originals were in the case, I would find it a wash. JMHO.

MeHereNow · Sep 27, 2017

mdubya said:
I have Gibsons with Grovers and Gibsons with White Button Klusons.

The only time I have added Grovers is when I broke tuning keys on low ceilings while practicing or gigging and I needed a replacement, ASAP, and Grovers were all I could find.

You did'nt just play one of the other Gibsons you have? :hmm

eace2:salude

Big Al · Sep 27, 2017

mdubya said:
I have Gibsons with Grovers and Gibsons with White Button Klusons. And I have had Gibsons with Keystone Klusons. I prefer to leave them with whatever they came with stock. Any tuning issues are almost always the nut. Lube of choice fixes that.

The only time I have added Grovers is when I broke tuning keys on low ceilings while practicing or gigging and I needed a replacement, ASAP, and Grovers were all I could find.

If Grovers are your thing, go for it. As someone who shops used gear somewhat regularly, I would find a tuning key change to be a downgrade. If the originals were in the case, I would find it a wash. JMHO.

The ability to achieve and hold pitch has everthing to due with tuners. I built and repaired guitars for well over 30ys as well as a professional touring and recording musician. Crappy nut jobs and lube remedies are symptoms of poor setups and craftsmanship.

My livelyhood depended on being in tune and getting in tune, quickly and accurately. Spend time with a properly set up Les Paul with quality die cast high ratio machine heads like Grovers and the stock Kluson machines shortcomings become evident, no matter how much lube you use.

To Grover, or Not to Grover

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