Joes B's grovered 59 and grovered les Bursts in general

J.D. · Sep 22, 2017

I'd suggest finding and looking closely at vintage Gibson (and other) acoustic and electric guitars with factory installed Grovers and noting the subtle differences, and not simply demanding "proof". Do your own legwork as TW and some others have.

Tom Wittrock · Sep 22, 2017

bluesky636 said:
Tom, if you have indeed done all this research, why not present it or at least provide something more concrete than "because"? I certainly would be interested in reading it. Maybe TM1 is mistaken and would acknowledge his mistake. I do find it interesting that he has not weighed into this discussion.

This has been discussed, with detailed photos in previous threads. I'm sure I posted in one or more. Probably a few years back. :hmm

And, I assumed :## it was common knowledge that a copyright date only means it can't be any older.
I see this all the time in collecting books and packaging labels.
They might have used that label for several years. That would be nice to know, if anyone wants to research it. None of my Grover boxes are that old.

BTW: Anybody got any more photos of these cool "Gibson" engraved Grovers?

Tom Wittrock · Sep 22, 2017

Could be, Gibson stamped them? :hmm

garywright · Sep 22, 2017

http://retrofokus.blogspot.com/2014/01/parts-for-paul-pt-6.html

J.D. · Sep 22, 2017

I recall seeing a circa 1970-ish Gibson SG with what appeared to be factory installed Grovers with the embossed GIBSON name.

Just because TM1's Grover's were in that box doesn't necessarily mean that is the original box to those tuners. :hmm

JJ Blair · Sep 22, 2017

Never seen somebody who doesn't own vintage anything be so stubborn about insisting what vintage something is or isn't.

You will not find '50s Grovers with black ends. Period. The earliest black ends I could find were 1963.

They also do not have the rounded bevel that you would see on '50s Grovers.

Have I proved it, or do you still doubt?

Tom Wittrock · Sep 22, 2017

garywright said:
http://retrofokus.blogspot.com/2014/01/parts-for-paul-pt-6.html

Very nice info, although disappointing that he doesn't show the earliest style.
Thanks Gary! :dude:

Tom Wittrock · Sep 22, 2017

JJ Blair said:
You will not find '50s Grovers with black ends. Period. The earliest black ends I could find were 1963.

They also do not have the rounded bevel that you would see on '50s Grovers.

I wondered when the cut off date might be.
Anybody else have details on this change in Rotomatic build?

I have seen sets with the PAF writing and the black ends. Those seem to last up to the later 60s. :hmm

J.D. · Sep 22, 2017

The plated worm gears were only late '50s with paf stamping more around the outer edge of the shaft gear cover. Sometime early '60s the worm gear got the typical black oxide plating with the "stepped" end as shown. Not long after, the paf stamping moved toward more of the center of the shaft gear cover. They then dropped the paf stamping circa later '60s early '70s and added USA to the body casting. There were other minor cosmetic and internal changes all along that I'm not going to try to explain or describe. There are no absolutes with these details as they probably switched up certain things as they ran out of parts. This is complicated by people repairing and swapping parts over the past 60 years.

bluesky636 · Sep 22, 2017

JJ Blair said:
Never seen somebody who doesn't own vintage anything be so stubborn about insisting what vintage something is or isn't.

You will not find '50s Grovers with black ends. Period. The earliest black ends I could find were 1963.

They also do not have the rounded bevel that you would see on '50s Grovers.

Have I proved it, or do you still doubt?

Frankly, I don't give a damn any more. Take it up with TM1.

TM1 said:
I have a set of Grover Rotomatic's from the late '50's that are stamped "GIBSON" where the Grover name is usually stamped on the back. They came in the original Box that has an orange label marked GIBSON in place of the light green-ish Grover label.

garywright · Sep 22, 2017

bluesky636 said:
Frankly, I don't give a damn any more. Take it up with TM1.

have good day Sir

JJ Blair · Sep 23, 2017

Tom Wittrock said:
I wondered when the cut off date might be.
Anybody else have details on this change in Rotomatic build?

I have seen sets with the PAF writing and the black ends. Those seem to last up to the later 60s. :hmm

I don't know his name, but the dude at Mended Strings Luthiery in Atlanta seems to know a whole hell of a lot about Grovers, if you've ever followed his sales on Reverb.

My understanding is that PAF goes until '69.

Tom Wittrock · Sep 23, 2017

I think Dr. Vintage added Grovers to his 50s Kluson white pages.
I think those pages are no longer available. :hmm

BSeneca · Oct 13, 2017

JJ Blair said:
Having a plain top is more of a price deduction. Personally, I think Grovers make them sound better. But that's just me.

In what way do you hear a difference? I just bought my first vintage Les Paul, player grade 52 all original with headstock repair. The thing sounds incredible now and the original tuners work fine but I know some modifications are needed to switch to grovers. From experience i know they work better just curious if the mod is worth it.

JJ Blair · Oct 16, 2017

BSeneca said:
In what way do you hear a difference? I just bought my first vintage Les Paul, player grade 52 all original with headstock repair. The thing sounds incredible now and the original tuners work fine but I know some modifications are needed to switch to grovers. From experience i know they work better just curious if the mod is worth it.

The note feels thicker, more sustainy.

JBLPplayer · Oct 17, 2017

bluesky636 said:
Prove it.

Who cares really at this point?

El Gringo · Oct 19, 2017

CDaughtry said:
That's not a date...it's a copyright.:jim

It's like shooting fish in a barrel

KangaBlue · Jan 6, 2019

Tom Wittrock said:
There are, but they are inferior to the common Grover model [Roto-Matics] that most people are talking about when merely saying Grovers.
Grover has made quite a few different models of keys over the years.

Are there any replacement tuners that fit the kluson holes that you could recommend? Maybe Gotoh locking Klusons or something?
I own a '60 ES335 and made the mistake of using the original klusons... one day, whilst tuning up, the tip just crumbled in my hand.
What I should have done was replaced them in the first instance and kept the original klusons safe.

marfen · Jan 6, 2019

Replace the tip on that tuner and call it done! The most non evasive route.

Tom Wittrock · Jan 6, 2019

ASG said:
Are there any replacement tuners that fit the kluson holes that you could recommend? Maybe Gotoh locking Klusons or something?
I own a '60 ES335 and made the mistake of using the original klusons... one day, whilst tuning up, the tip just crumbled in my hand.
What I should have done was replaced them in the first instance and kept the original klusons safe.

marfen said:
Replace the tip on that tuner and call it done! The most non evasive route.

That's what I would do.
But you can also buy new Klusons that match.
Two simple solutions.

Joes B's grovered 59 and grovered les Bursts in general

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