Which guitar is closest to a burst....

[j45]

There you go, I do hear differences in the clarity of mids between the burst and lowly '74 but "burst tone" I hear from neither. I didn't use the burst I owned at the time but I made a clip with a PAF 50's goldtop which had characteristics to match a burst along with seven other vintage Gibsons in a kind of blindfold test in which neither I or anyone here could identify hollow from solid body....much less "burst tone"....or even PAF from P90... We obviously need visuals to complete the formula.

 

[Xpensive Wino]

Yaron, Max, or Derrig?

:couch

 

[krapac]

Never sounded like a Burst to me, but this guy had an awesome Les Paul tone with a maple top Custom.

Absolutely..! :yah

 

[PLarson]

I saw in an interwiew that Gary Moore's workhorse was a '57 Historic. I'd go for that. la

 

[jimmi]

There you go, I do hear differences in the clarity of mids between the burst and lowly '74 but "burst tone" I hear from neither. I didn't use the burst I owned at the time but I made a clip with a PAF 50's goldtop which had characteristics to match a burst along with seven other vintage Gibsons in a kind of blindfold test in which neither I or anyone here could identify hollow from solid body....much less "burst tone"....or even PAF from P90... We obviously need visuals to complete the formula.

I remember that video....there was a firebird also. Why don't you repost it.

 

[Kris Ford]

His early 70s custom has a transitional tenon. Shouldn't be that big of difference. I think that the customs were still one peice bodies until 74 or 75 (sure someone will correct me if I am wrong). T-tops I agree but some of that is in the magnet which you can swap or swap the whole pickup. All that said, I have played some very good norlin era guitars. just different than the 50s.

Pancake was phased out in '77, early/mid year sometime..

 

[yeti]

There you go, I do hear differences in the clarity of mids between the burst and lowly '74 but "burst tone" I hear from neither. I didn't use the burst I owned at the time but I made a clip with a PAF 50's goldtop which had characteristics to match a burst along with seven other vintage Gibsons in a kind of blindfold test in which neither I or anyone here could identify hollow from solid body....much less "burst tone"....or even PAF from P90... We obviously need visuals to complete the formula.

I don't know exactly what "Burst" tone is to you, so I can't agree or disagree with that, but IME the test scenario in that video (DI recording reamped, playing style) should minimize the differences between these 2 guitars rather than highlight them. What I hear is fundamental differences that I associate with vintage les pauls and , to a lesser degree with good Historics vs 70's/ 80's era les pauls.
These differences
a: would increase exponentially if you added a real amp, overdrive, volume,etc.
b: can't be overcome with a different set of PUs or pots. (The '74 has PAF replicas by Haeussel but still sounds like a Norlin era Gibson to me)


As to that '74 being lowly, I don't think so, it sounds good but different, different in pretty much the way I expected it to sound different. Expectation bias on my part? Who knows?

Your blindfolded test did make the point you reitterated in your post above but that doesn't mean that there are no general characteristics that can be attributed to different guitars. Them being there and us being able to recognize them are two different things, the second being dependant on a great number of variables.
Just my 2 cents.

 

[j45]

"Lowly" was taken from the video pointing out the value of the'74 at something like 1% of the burst...."characteristics"....".them being there but us being able to recognize them are two different things".. . "Great number of variables"....see post #10..... To me and for me. making the clip I referenced was much like the dog who chases his tail. My conclusion... burst = legend, amazing instrument in concept, historical legacy unparalleled, solid investment, great PAF tone..... burst tone = folk lore , romanticism, opinion, impossible to classify in a definitive fashion. Just take a listen to JD Simo ripping some amazing Claptonesque riffs on a burst in a recent post, cue up Wheels of Fire : Spoonful .....and Live Cream 1 : NSU ...in separate windows and fast forward to solo sections A//B with the Simo burst clip and hear even more attitude, tone, dynamics, aggression, confidence, and an SG that dishes out even more "burst tone" than JD conjures up on the burst. Seriously, if we didn't know it was an SG???...who would question??

 

[yeti]

..My conclusion... burst = legend, amazing instrument in concept, historical legacy unparalleled, solid investment, great PAF tone..... burst tone = folk lore , romanticism, opinion, impossible to classify in a definitive fashion.

Totally agree but the OP wanted to know which of his 3 guitars come the closest to a Burst. I answered (jokingly) that the Custom would because it also has 2 PUs. If I was a guitarist owning a Burst and had to play a full gig with one of the 3 guitars I surely would pick the Custom for that reason alone. It wouldn't sound the same as Burst (see comparisson video) but it would be a better approximation (despite the differences outlined earlier) than a single PU junior. I hope this makes sense.

 

[j45]

Apparently we are both preaching to the choir... yes, that makes sense....yes, the Custom would be the most obvious choice....maybe... but I believe in a blindfold, any of the above could sound like "burst tone" depending on "variables", as you say. As shown in the burst vs. '74 clip....at least in my experiences making similar tests to try and learn, a Les Paul shaped guitar built by Gibson in '58,'59,'60 just does not have an overwhelming amount of inherent character to completely overwhelm any and all "variables" to the point it is unmistakable in voice, or "burst tone", when placed in anyones hands or any surrounding circumstances and variables... And for anyone who doesn't know me or those here who may think I'm in any way slighting the burst legend, I believe a burst is one of the handful of most perfect electric guitars ever made. I'm a former owner, played quite a few others.... all were memorable well beyond the typical "great guitar" encounter, and each left indelible, life long impressions that justify their legend. There is just so much more to King's initial question than can be answered matter-of-factually ....and I love to explore everything that is a part of the guitar playing experience. Its a never ending quest. I've always been grateful for this place, the data base it provides and the brainstorming that takes place with every question posed, and what I can take home from it in the process.

 

[yeti]

Apparently we are both preaching to the choir...

... As shown in the burst vs. '74 clip....at least in my experiences making similar tests to try and learn, a Les Paul shaped guitar built by Gibson in '58,'59,'60 just does not have an overwhelming amount of inherent character to completely overwhelm any and all "variables" to the point it is unmistakable in voice, or "burst tone", when placed in anyones hands or any surrounding circumstances and variables...

Thanks for the discussion, Kerry, I hope it's allright with the OP.
I'd just like to make one more comment on my experiences which are mostly in the distant past.
What I always found identifiable about a really great late 50's Les Paul vs some other equally great guitars that "speak Burst" (golden era 335 for example) is the way the guitar resonates acoustically. How much of that makes it to the amplifier is another question. No doubt that a great 335 resonates, sounds and feels different in my hands (unamplified) than a les paul, but amplified they can move in on each other's territory quite easily. Now add volume, distortion, room acoustics, etc. and it becomes rather blurry.
I've said on occasion that IMO you don't need a vintage Burst or GT to get "that sound" and I stand by that , however , under certain circumstances they are identifiable nonetheless.
BTW, the example in that video doesn't strike me as a particularly great example of a Burst but it still has that difference in tone vs the Custom. If you would have told me that it's a Historic I would have believed it as well.

 

[kharrison]

I still think this is a useful video on the subject. It confirms what i have experienced myself. Putting it into words is not so easy, but that's the difference. Would be great if the vid had some different playing techniques and sounds but still...

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/VXJPHgbrlw8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I don't hear much of a difference. But this Custom has boutique pickups and not TTops. That has to make some difference.

 

[JJ Blair]

You'd be surprised how much using a computer simulated amp is hiding differences, too. Pickups interact with amps in a way that modeling doesn't capture.

 

[yeti]

I don't hear much of a difference. But this Custom has boutique pickups and not TTops. That has to make some difference.

We all listen for different things for sure. To me the Boutique PAFs don't override that which I expect to hear from that Custom which is very different from that Burst.

You'd be surprised how much using a computer simulated amp is hiding differences, too. Pickups interact with amps in a way that modeling doesn't capture.

Exactly, but the advantage here is that re-amping through a neutral amp sim really let's you hear the inherent differences minus all that guitar-amp interaction voodoo, that's why I believe that once you enter real amplification the differences will increase quite a bit. But the sterile setup lays them out in front of you with surgical precision, IMO.
Do you think the video captures the essence? I think it does to an extend but I'd actually prefer a recording of both guitars straight into a great tube DI with proper re-amping impedance (Millenia makes one I believe) to protools, using headphones, THAT would tell you something about the inherent qualities of those guitars, IMHO. Then a second comparison using various amps and volumes.

 

[Kris Ford]

May not sound like a burst, but it will damn sure sound like a Les Paul..I think Kerry said it best.:salude

 

[Skipped]

Yes but......which guitar is closest to a 'Burst?


A Conversion.


Ah.....So what you are saying is that a 50's Les Paul routed for PAFs is probably going to share sonic qualities with a 'Burst, which is of course a 50's Les Paul routed for PAFs.


That is correct. That is what I am saying.


And do you think that people should be surprised if they are handed a Conversion which is routed for PAFs and they discover that it shares many sonic qualities with a 'Burst which was routed for PAFs at the factory??


No.

 

[Big Al]

The Custom should serve that purpose well. It is hard to nail a tone you "REMEMBER" but the Custom should get you the closest with what you have. Anyone that can claim to hear the fingerboards through and amp has been smoking too much weed.

Chasing the whole closest to Burst Tone is an exercise in cheese sniffing. Which Burst? Everyone I have played had it's own tone, just like the guitars now. They all sound different. But for classic good all around Les Paul tone, that there Custom ought do the job pretty well, I'd wager.

 

[abalonevintage]

Anyone that can claim to hear the fingerboards through and amp has been smoking too much weed.

The tone difference between maple and rosewood board Strats is very apparent...

 

[yeti]

Anyone that can claim to hear the fingerboards through and amp has been smoking too much weed.

The tone difference between maple and rosewood board Strats is very apparent...

I can see both sides of this argument. As far as Fender electrics go the tone is in the neck, IMO. The weirdest thing about that is not Rosewood vs maple but the comparison of maple necks and maple capped necks, huge difference to my ears. I can't explain why, but the difference seems real to me.With Gibsons I think I can hear it side by side BUT I can't tell you from a soundclip whether someone is playing a 335 or 355.

 

[Big Al]

I can see both sides of this argument. As far as Fender electrics go the tone is in the neck, IMO. The weirdest thing about that is not Rosewood vs maple but the comparison of maple necks and maple capped necks, huge difference to my ears. I can't explain why, but the difference seems real to me.With Gibsons I think I can hear it side by side BUT I can't tell you from a soundclip whether someone is playing a 335 or 355.

I agree, somewhat. Back in the day I argued this point in many threads. Having a small herd of vintage Strats in the early 80's I mixed and matched many maple neck/rosewood board Stras and Teles.

The tone does indeed follow the neck, though the rest of the guitar still colors the tone. A rosewood slab cap 61 will have a certain character that remains when placed on an Ash 50's Tele, but put onto another Ash 50's body will show some similar tonal properties as on the previous two guitars but will still have a distinct voice all it's own.

The greater or most obvious tonal signatures do seem to stay with the neck, in any case.

50's necks are rear routed and use a smaller truss rod. 60's necks are top routed and have a larger truss rod and a laminated cap of Rosewood or Maple. Very different construction methods that on a Neck with it's powerful influence on overall tone, seems to lead to assumptions placed on the more visually noticeable fingerboard wood. That is to say the fingerboard gets all the attention.

I have, and along with several of my pals and customers at the time, compared Maple capped Pre 66 necks to the more common Rosewood capped counterparts and none of us could find a significant tonal feature you could label as "Fingerboard Tone".

The remark I made about Fingerboards and weed was in reply to the notion put forth by krapac that Brazilian Rosewood was an important part of the tonal makeup of Burst Tone, which I find utterly preposterous and not true at all. Braz ma be more historically correct but no one has ever been able to tell the difference between Indian or Brazilian Rosewood fingerboards by tone. This was all hashed out in 03. It hasn't changed any since then.