Tone myths

[Jeff]

+1!

In regards to strings, I find that the biggest difference is in composition, if we're talking round wounds. For instance, steel-wrapped strings sound a lot different than nickel-wrapped. They also wreck your frets unless you play a Parker Fly

@ CharlieS

I've been playing guitar since I was 7. I've played everything under the sun. I am also totally on-board with JoeV on this. There's a lot of cork-sniffing and hurt feelings when somebody can't actually see the Emperor's new clothes, whether it be tenon length, bumblebee caps, or little pictures of Jesus concealed under the pickup cavities. I think it would be nice to separate the BS from the fact, and actually compile a list of things that WILL alter your guitar's tone, rather than your perception of your guitar's tone.

Well, fortunately you can experiment for yourself easily enough and form your own opinions. Now if you choose not to, what else do you have to go on? If you can answer this question, perhaps you can put your own list together, lol! :ganz

 

[CharlieS]

+1!


@ CharlieS

I've been playing guitar since I was 7. I've played everything under the sun. I am also totally on-board with JoeV on this. There's a lot of cork-sniffing and hurt feelings when somebody can't actually see the Emperor's new clothes, whether it be tenon length, bumblebee caps, or little pictures of Jesus concealed under the pickup cavities. I think it would be nice to separate the BS from the fact, and actually compile a list of things that WILL alter your guitar's tone, rather than your perception of your guitar's tone.

If you've tried it and don't perceive a difference, that's one thing. I respect that and you can save lots of money.

If you haven't tried it, how do you have a basis for negating what others have tried?

Hurt feelings? If you don't buy into the tailpiece observations, great. Don't get one and be happy. I couldn't care less if you play a diddly bow. If it works for you, I'm all for it. If you see a need to debunk these "myths," then have at it. Nobody is stopping you.:hippy

Perception of tone? How does one quantify tone, other than by perceiving it? So much of playing and tone is subjective, that a scientific analysis lacks relevance. If it doesn't sound and feel "right" to me, I won't be inspired to play my best.

There are too many variables to quantify. Mods on some guitars sound good to me, while others don't. The wood is not a constant, nor is the guitar's inherent tonal qualities. You can test one guitar, but if you test many, results will be all over the map, I'd guess.

 

[phil47uk]

I'm sure that changing things around does make a subtle difference to the guitars tone..... The problem is, that it does absolutely fuck all for ones playing skills.:hmm

Phil.:bh

 

[Zhangliqun]

Is it? How do we know? It's easily tested. Blindfold the player and hand him a guitar and see if he can tell which bridge is being used. If the difference is that dramatic, he or she should be able to pick out the new TP every time. Simple enough.

Maybe it's all in the players' head, due to the fact that he or she perceives the guitar to be better? That is a valid reason for getting a new TP also, btw. But I'd just like to know for the sake of knowing if you can actually see/feel/hear a difference in a blind test.

How do we know anything? Maybe this forum is just something perceived in our heads simultaneously but only I exist and the rest of you are illusions. I say I like a NY Strip better than a London Broil but how do I know that's really true? Maybe it was some specially flavored broccoli or cod or Elmer's glue that someone snuck on to my plate when I wasn't looking that somehow looks, smells, and tastes just like a NY strip. Assuming I really know what a NY strip looks smells and tastes like.

I'm afraid to enjoy music at a club without having a team of scientific experts go in there before me and bring me scientific proof that the music is actually good. I don't trust my own perceptions about music or food to really know if I'm enjoying them at a club or restaurant or not. I need the results of blind taste and listening tests by a representative segment of the music and steak loving population before I leave the house.

Scientific analysis has its place to be sure, but there are some areas of life that are best left to instinct and intuition. Otherwise, we end up reasoning our way into crippling uncertainty.

 

[boneheadgibby]

Tone is mostly in the hands.

I bet you B. Gibbons could play any LP and it would sound like Billy and have great TONE.

 

[powergus6000]

It is like I am watching Star Trek and Spock and the captain guy are arguing about logic and feelings.

 

[orbifold]

It is like I am watching Star Trek and Spock and the captain guy are arguing about logic and feelings.

:lol

Hi JoeV,

While it is true that the type of evidence that goes like "me and 20 of my friends
think that this makes your guitar sound better and we all have 30 years of experience
playing Les Pauls" would not make it into a peer reviewed scientific publication, I would
bet a lot of money that those guys are in fact right.

From a practical point of view, double blind implies that the player does not
know what he is playing and even the person handling the guitars should not
know which guitar he's handing out. If it's done on the same guitar if your
testing a TP, the test is not easy to setup... I'm all for doing objective tests when
it makes sense but to tell you the truth, since tone is subjective, if I think
that my guitar sounds better after changing the TP, then that is all that
matters (even if one could prove that nothing changed). Call it the guitar
placebo effect. If I'm happy, I play more and I play better

 

[Zhangliqun]

Do critters in the woods wait for a scientific study to show that they really need water before they'll believe it? Or do they just go down to the stream and drink it?

 

[Cheburashka]

Well, fortunately you can experiment for yourself easily enough and form your own opinions. Now if you choose not to, what else do you have to go on? If you can answer this question, perhaps you can put your own list together, lol! :ganz

I think you've missed my point. I want to ELIMINATE opinion from the equation. I want science fact to waste my limited funds on, rather than science opinion.

My reasoning is this: When I read some of the "scientific" explainations in favour of certain products, or features, I can't help but snort the scalding hot tea I'm drinking through my nose. This is extremely painful. If I can help to educate people about things like properly prepared scientific experiments, and empirical over anecdotal evidence, I can avoid getting my sinuses burned in the future.

 

[JoeV]

Do critters in the woods wait for a scientific study to show that they really need water before they'll believe it? Or do they just go down to the stream and drink it?

Critters don't have to shell out 50 bucks to take a sip.

 

[dgood]

You are so right. When people *think* they can perceive differences between one thing and another, they're just buying into the system; especially when it comes to things like flavors, musicals, and car noises. Can you *prove* an explosion is louder than a disruption? I didn't think so. And unless you can double blind test these so-called differences (using both eyes), I'm going to have to call *bullshit* on your whole concept of "differences." Everything's the same, man. Perception is a lie.

 

[Cheburashka]

Critters don't have to shell out 50 bucks to take a sip.

They also don't have people on the shore telling them that the gaps between the molecules ruin the taste, or that yesterday's water was much better than today's.

 

[CharlieS]

I think you've missed my point. I want to ELIMINATE opinion from the equation. I want science fact to waste my limited funds on, rather than science opinion.

Ahh, I see. What you're really looking for is for those of us who have already spent the money on these parts to conduct a scientifically sound study into the objective result of each part change. Then, after the results pass muster with you, you can safely spend your money.

Of course, after you study the appropriate graphs and data of the frequency response and changes, you'll have to compare the study's results to your own guitar's tonal properties (objectively measured, of course) to see whether the part will complement your desired tone.

Sounds like fun.:biglaugh:

 

[les strat]

OK. I am have a MS in Biology, so I know tons about the scientific method......

It sure as hell takes the fun out of tinkering!

 

[JoeV]

Jeebus. This is crazy.

We're not debating the molecular structure of anything here. I'm trying to determine if normal, average listeners can hear the difference between an aluminum tailpiece and a standard one. If you do a blind listening test you can find this out. If you don't do a blind listening test, you're just guessing. That doesn't cut it for me, if it does for you, good job. Move on to the next topic on the forum.

You can keep on buyin' and tryin' till the cows come home or your money runs out. Just don't pretend that the scientific method doesn't exist or matter. :fc

 

[dgood]

We can't handle the truth.

 

[96 lppp]

Jeebus. This is crazy.

We're not debating the molecular structure of anything here. I'm trying to determine if normal, average listeners can hear the difference between an aluminum tailpiece and a standard one. If you do a blind listening test you can find this out. If you don't do a blind listening test, you're just guessing. That doesn't cut it for me, if it does for you, good job. Move on to the next topic on the forum.

You can keep on buyin' and tryin' till the cows come home or your money runs out. Just don't pretend that the scientific method doesn't exist or matter. :fc

If a $1,000,000 scientific test was done you would then wonder if the signal measuring gear was calibrated properly, right? Being too cheap to try a $40 tailpiece and not believing the people that bought one is moronic at best. Guitarists that are serious about tone try and buy alot of gear to find what works best for them, not for you.

 

[JoeV]

If a $1,000,000 scientific test was done you would then wonder if the signal measuring gear was calibrated properly, right? Being too cheap to try a $40 tailpiece and not believing the people that bought one is moronic at best. Guitarists that are serious about tone try and buy alot of gear to find what works best for them, not for you.

Dude, let's not get personal here.

 

[dgood]

I am bitter and defensive about my unscientific "perceptions," and my gear mistakes. I've tried to rationalize and justify my actions over the years. I've lied to myself about "tone improvements" that I eagerly pretended to hear. But I was wrong, so wrong. Without science we are doomed to buy the wrong stuff. Why oh why did it take me so long to understand the falsity of desire? Why didn't I have faith in my fingers? I've been wrong for so long.:dang

 

[dgood]