Recommendation for First Les Paul?

[SteveMKentucky]

I'm in the market for my first Les Paul. I'm a relatively new guitar player having played a Squire Strat (one of the better ones with Seymour Duncan pickups).

I've been looking at LP Standards and want one that's pretty traditional. I will be playing this guitar, not collecting it. That said, I don't want to buy a guitar that is a blacksheep that won't re-sell well if I want to trade up. I don't want a robo tuner, I don't like the 15 signature and don't want a hologram. Other than that, have a few questions:

- Are there years to avoid? I've read that 2013's had problems with neck delamination.

- Since I'm used to the strat neck I think I'd be more satisfied with a 60's neck profile vice a fatter 50's. Is this really an issue?

- Does the weight of the body affect the sound? I've noticed that some of the guitars I like have a weight under 8 lb. I've seen others that are 10 ib or so.

- Are there any tuners to avoid? I've seen Klusens, Grovers and Gibsons. Is one 'better' than the other?

- Is an ebony fretboard much better than a rosewood?

I'm looking at an LP on Fleabay. Hesitant to buy without playing/hearing the guitar on a known amp but does anyone see any negatives about this guitar (other than the price which seems at the top end)?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/262046789061?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

I am considering a visit to GC to see the new 2016 Trads too. The pics that have been posted look promising.

Hopefully I won't create a flame war here. Just would like to hear opinions on my questions.

EDIT: I should have added that my budget is around $2K. I can stretch a bit for the right guitar but would like to stay close to that figure.

 

[RWT]

I just bought a guitar from Wildwood Guitars- awesome experience. Ask for Bruce Beard and tell him Rich from Texas (Wildwood Burst 1959) sent you.

Bruce was extremely helpful, very knowledgable and picked out an outstanding guitar. It arrived quickly-3 days and was set up perfectly!

For a little more than your budget, you should be able to negotiate a 2016 LP Trad, or for a bit more the 2016 Standard.

I I bought many guitars from GC, and you have to be very selective.

I will definitely buy from Wildwood again....very very helpful folks.

i have been playing a Fender Strat for a while......Gibson is a whole different party!

Defintely worth a call.

i also just ordered a 2016 LP Standard from Sweetwater...it arrives tomorrow. Updates after I play it. They were very good on price, but not as knowledge as Wildwood. Wildwood did not have one for me at this time.

hope that helps....

 

[SteveMKentucky]

I just bought a guitar from Wildwood Guitars- awesome experience. Ask for Bruce Beard and tell him Rich from Texas (Wildwood Burst 1959) sent you.

...

Thanks Rich. I may give them a call. Still interested in opinions on the questions though.

 

[DanD]

Looks to be a nice Standard. I've paid the same for R7s before. His price is at the top end but he's also a dealer so you'd expect that. Same guitar from a private seller would run $300-$500 less.

I like that model Standard as it's one of the late '08 to early '11 Standards with chambered weight relief. Ditch the Neutrick jack and it's a looker for sure. You may want to play a chambered Standard first as they are a bit different than a solidy body with Traditional weight relief or even modern weight relief.

I have an USA chambered and a modern weight relieved LP and there is a noticable difference. I like the chambered guitar but it can feedback at volume with a high gain amp. I use mine more for the bluesier stuff and it fits that roll perfectly. I'm thinking the heavier stuff like death metal may be a bit beyond its intended function tho.:2zone

 

[jrfisher]

My best advice is to handle the guitar in person before buying, it's the only way to know if you really love it.

For me, the biggest problem with buying a Gibson sight unseen is fret dressing. I have played Gibsons that have the frets dressed too far in and the high E string rolls off the edge of the fingerboard when fretted. If you have one of those, you have to get used to pushing the E string toward the center of the fretboard to keep it on the fret. This problem usually occurs with a neck that has binding over the ends of the frets. The factory tech has to be very careful not to dress the fret too much. I could go into binding thickness but that's a whole other discussion. Playing one of those guitars is not the fun experience that it should be, it's work.

The guitar you reference in the ebay link appears to have the square pots on a circuit board. I don't like the square pots, they tend to turn more easily and I'm used to the feel of a traditional pot. That guitar also has the Neutrik locking output jack which I don't like. If I step on a cord I want it to come out of the guitar instead of breaking something.

I prefer Gibson Deluxe tuners with plastic Keystone handles. Having said that, all tuners work well if you wrap the string backward and lock it under the opposite side of the post before winding. Proper stringing technique is another discussion.

Parting words: You never really own a Gibson, you just care for it till the next person takes over.

Cheers!

 

[SteveMKentucky]

Thanks Dan and JR. Particularly interesting comment about fret dressing. Never heard that before and never noticed any problem with my Strat. Strange that an instrument with the history and reputation of an LP would ever have such a problem.

I appreciate the comments about playing the guitar in person. However, I'm not sure I'd know how to evaluate. I tend to work on blues more than any other genre so do a lot of bends, hammer ons/offs and tremolo. As I play a strat with slinky strings I would expect an LP to feel entirely different. The trick will be deciding if it's something that I will get used to or something I won't.

I have played a friends LP Standard. Quite frankly I found the neck a bit chunky. My hands are pretty big, so I expect that I'd get used to it.

Playing one in person will rule out Wildwood and Ebay; leaves GC and Craigslist.

Thanks again for the comments.

 

[WBailey]

Well the first step would be to get off the internet and start actively looking for used Les Pauls, locally ! :hee

Be patient, play them all, eventually you will find one that INSPIRES you to play.

If it sounds good, feels good, you will play more and get better.

There are 26,000 members here with as many opinions. Forgetaboutit !

Squire strat to a Les Paul is a huge leap, take your time. Like I said, play them all, develop your own opinion on what you like, don't like.

Yeah, it's personal. And addictive. Take your time. Close your eyes, and buy with your ears. Forget the internet conjecture. YMMV

Only you, can decide which Les Paul is right for you. Get it ?

 

[SteveMKentucky]

Well the first step would be to get off the internet and start actively looking for used Les Pauls, locally ! :hee

Be patient, play them all, eventually you will find one that INSPIRES you to play.

If it sounds good, feels good, you will play more and get better.

There are 26,000 members here with as many opinions. Forgetaboutit !

Squire strat to a Les Paul is a huge leap, take your time. Like I said, play them all, develop your own opinion on what you like, don't like.

Yeah, it's personal. And addictive. Take your time. Close your eyes, and buy with your ears. Forget the internet conjecture. YMMV

Only you, can decide which Les Paul is right for you. Get it ?

Uh, yeah. Damn, I'm back on the Internet again. Damn!

 

[shred]

Personally, I'd go Norlin 70-74... Black Custom or routed Deluxe Gold Top... Or maybe a used R7 or (figured) R8. That's where the best value is anyway. Good luck

 

[1all's Pub]

A lot of models, a lot of variables, a lot of choices. You're doing the right thing by researching and asking first. You also need to go to stores and play them and find what you like. It may turn out that you just fall in love with a Studio... or that you're more of Traditional or Standard guy... or Reissue guy. Tough to tell for sure until you get some hands on first person perspective. I started off "thinking" I wanted a Standard. Got one (a 2014) really didn't care for the Burstbucker Pro pickups in it. Returned it and discovered (after some more trial and error) that I am a Traditional guy all the way (and became a convert to the thicker 50s profile necks in the process). So now I have 2 Trads (and have had a total of 4).

Things to be aware of (not necessarily "look out for" or "avoid" because every guitar is its own animal and it's possible to get one that stinks from what's generally considered a "good year" and vise-a-versa).

Anyway... here's a few things I "discovered" at least about the models of the last few years (say from 2011 till now) while I was trying to decide what model and what year LP I wanted (I've not owned an LP older than 2011).

Be aware of weight relieving methods that exist on varying modes. Gibson has used everything from solid bodies, to traditional weight relief (ie, 9 swiss cheese holes) to modern weight relief (lots more holes) to full on chambering. People will argue about whether this weight relief method or that weight relief method makes a difference vis-a-vis tone, etc. Point is, it's pretty subjective and there's no real "right" or "wrong" answer... just what you like. So if you find yourself just intuitively thinking you don't want any weight relief at all... then stay away from Standards and Studios and even most year Traditionals have some form of weight relief (in the case of the Trads it's the conservative traditional weight relief... except from 2013-2015 when they built them non-weight relieved). Also, as an FYI... 2011 was the last year they chambered the Standard. In 2012 it went to modern weight relief.

2011-2012: Something to be aware of here is the fretboard issues Gibson had back in late 2011 through early 2013. They had a ton of rosewood (and ebony IIRC) confiscated by the feds. And for a while during the 2012 model year (and even some into early 2013s that I've seen) many of their guitars (not just LPs) were receiving 2-piece laminated fretboards. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it was different and did cause some heartburn back in 2012 among the LP faithful. There are fears that future refretting could be problematic with these 2-piece boards (I personally doubt it though... there are plenty of old Strats from the 60s with very thin rosewood boards laminated onto maple necks that have survived multiple refretting jobs). That said... 2012s could conceivably suffer from a resale perspective (might also be cheaper for you to buy too as a result). Just something to be aware off. The real issue with the fretboards in 2012 for me wasn't the laminating of the 2 pieces of rosewood together... it was the general lack of good quality rosewood that was available to them (lots of light colored, sub-grade-A rosewood being used back then that IMO didn't look great even if it sounded fine).

2013: At least from a Trad perspective is considered a particularly good year. They went to non-weight relieved bodies and fatter early 50s profile necks. Other models seem to be generally well regarded in 2013 as well. I think the neck delaminating thing is pretty anecdotal. This is also the first year Gibson started making the MinEtune robot tuner optional on many models. I don't like 'em... YMMV.

2014: More MinEtuner on more models. Also all models in 2014 (except for some special order retailer models like GC's Trad Pro II models) received the somewhat controversial 120th Anniversary 12th fret inlay. I personally have ZERO problem with the inlay. I have it on my 2014 Trad and I think it's tastefully done and I even kinda dig it. But some people just couldn't get over the fact that Gibson put it there. That said, nowadays I think most folks have probably chilled out considerably about the inlay (no doubt because of the massive changes that followed in 2015 that REALLY gave people something to complain about). Anyway, generally though, from a build perspective 2014 is a pretty decent year (other than those infernal MinEtune gizmos). The Trad in particular in 2014 is a treat. It not only retained the non-weight relieved body, and the early 50s neck profile, but also has the very excellent 1959 Tribute humbuckers. These appear to have only been a 2 year option (2014-15) as the new 2016 Trads have gone back to their usual 57 Classic/57 Classic Plus pickup config (which is what the Trad had always had before 2014). I'm not sure why the 59 Tribs didn't make it into the 2016 Trads...but I have an as yet uproven theory that they have moved them over to Custom Shop usage only (they are/were that good!).

2015: The year of the train wreck! :dang Now, some people are actually fans of many of the 2015 "innovations" but I am NOT one of them (and I dare say I am in the majority!)... so I mean to offend no one here, but hey, I'm writing this so I'm gonna call it as I see it. In 2015 Gibson flat out lost their minds! They made many sweeping across the board changes the entire line up that it was frankly stunning to many in the LP community... and to top it off introduced a massive price increase (as much as 29% IIRC on some models). I won't go into all the gory details (you can EASILY research this yourself and see all the changes they made and the resulting backlash)... but suffice it to say, history will likely record the 2015 model year as definite black mark on the LP's storied history. I personally would avoid them like the plague. Frankly you couldn't give me one without me immediately turning around & selling it to fund a different year... any year!

2016: The Great Gibson Comeback? After the disasterous 2015 model year it appears that Gibson got the clue and has returned once again (thankfully) to building LPs in the time tested and traditional manner. Gone are the etuners and wide necks and holograms and brass nuts and metal flake paint that polluted the 2015 year. Basically it appears that Gibson went back to building them like the built most models in the 2010-2012 timeframe. AND... they even reduced the price back to close to 2012-13 levels. FULL DISCLOSURE: I bought a new 2016 Trad a week and a half ago... and I do have to say... it's awesome!!!!!!!!! If someone would have handed it to me and said, "Check out this 2011 Trad" I'd have totally believed them until I noticed the larger strap buttons (a good carry over from 2014-15) and the "2016 Model" stamping on the back of the headstock. It appears Gibson has righted the ship and gone back to making them as they should. This same holds true for the Standard and the Studio, et al. That said, there is talk that the Gibson USA line will actually be split in 2016 to include the "Traditional Line" (dubbed "T" as in "Les Paul Standard T" or "Les Paul Traditional T") and a new as yet to be released "Modern Line". This Modern Line presumably will be the home experimental gizmos and other things that they tried to make standard across the board (and failed miserably at) in 2015. Time will tell if the Modern Line succeeds or not. But at least right here, right now... for at least one more year... we can get an LP built the proper way with the "T" line. Which is why I snapped one up myself.

Anyway, regarding other older models... I'll leave that to you to research... I've already been obnoxiously long-winded with this and if you've made it this far in reading this post you probably deserve some kind of medal. :3zoneHope it helped. :salude

 

[ChevChelios]

After years of having to take classical guitar lessons and hard work in a local music store (and also no typical teenager fun) I finally got enough money together to buy my first electric guitar - it had to be a Les Paul (thanks to Jimmy Page, Slash, etc.).

With the help of my father ("Don't tell your mom!") I was able to afford a new 1992 Gibson Studio Lite - a guitar I own (!) to this day. I also have a regular 1998 Studio and it sounds formidable. At one point I changed the pickups & electronics, but to me, there is no better bang for the buck than the 90s Les Paul Studios.

Since then, I did "upgrade" to first Standards, then Historics, and Les Paul inspired masterbuild guitars. But when it comes down to get the typical Les Paul sound on a crowded stage, the Studios are still my go-to guitars. On Craigslist, these guitars can go as low as $500 - and you'll get a hell of an amp for the leftover $1500!

Otherwise - if you're into the looks, binding, and stuff - looking for a 90s to early 2000s Classic might be a good idea (esp. since those have the slim taper neck).

Our local Guitarcenter has a CS Standard (weirdly named Custom Pro Heather Poly; built by the Custom Shop) on clearance sale for $2200.

(that's not the actual guitar for sale, but it's the identical model + color)

That's a hell of a guitar!

 

[SteveMKentucky]

A lot of models, a lot of variables, a lot of choices. ...Hope it helped. :salude

Thanks for the in-depth response. Very helpful, and yes, I read every word. I tend to study things to death.

I've been looking around and trying a few different LP's. I have two friends with LP's and have tried them both. One is an older studio and the other is a Standard around 2008 or so. I also visited the Guitar Center in Louisville yesterday to look at the 2016's. They didn't have any despite their website indicating that they had them in stock. I was on the Louisville website but they told me that the specific guitar links were nationwide.

I did get my hands on a 2013 that they had discounted to $1999.00 on clearance. I was a bit underwhelmed. The finish seemed dull and uneven in places and the top had a small sap void or some other blemish in a prominent spot. I was surprised that GC even had it in the store and not surprised it was still there on clearance. They had about eight 2015's hanging on the wall looking lonely. When I asked about the 2016's the salesman said that they got one in last week and it sold the same day.

As an aside, they had a 1966 ES-335 that looked mint. I've never seen a guitar of that age in the condition this one was in. It apparently spent most of its life un-played. If it weren't for the $5,500 price tag I would have snapped it up. I think the guitar is worth every penny, I just can't spend that much right now.

The salesman at GC talked up the 15's. I just chalked that up to salesmanship. He especially promoted the zero fret nut which he lamented was going away on the 16's.

I also spoke with a salesman at Sweetwater. He asked me how I knew about the 16's as Gibson has not even marketed them yet. He said that they are selling them as they come in and that Gibson was having trouble meeting demand. From what I'm seeing the 16's are becoming quite an attractive option. I just need to play one but I haven't found one to get my hands on yet.

 

[WBailey]

Thanks for the in-depth response. Very helpful, and yes, I read every word. I tend to study things to death.

I've been looking around and trying a few different LP's. I have two friends with LP's and have tried them both. One is an older studio and the other is a Standard around 2008 or so. I also visited the Guitar Center in Louisville yesterday to look at the 2016's. They didn't have any despite their website indicating that they had them in stock. I was on the Louisville website but they told me that the specific guitar links were nationwide.

I did get my hands on a 2013 that they had discounted to $1999.00 on clearance. I was a bit underwhelmed. The finish seemed dull and uneven in places and the top had a small sap void or some other blemish in a prominent spot. I was surprised that GC even had it in the store and not surprised it was still there on clearance. They had about eight 2015's hanging on the wall looking lonely. When I asked about the 2016's the salesman said that they got one in last week and it sold the same day.

As an aside, they had a 1966 ES-335 that looked mint. I've never seen a guitar of that age in the condition this one was in. It apparently spent most of its life un-played. If it weren't for the $5,500 price tag I would have snapped it up. I think the guitar is worth every penny, I just can't spend that much right now.

The salesman at GC talked up the 15's. I just chalked that up to salesmanship. He especially promoted the zero fret nut which he lamented was going away on the 16's.

I also spoke with a salesman at Sweetwater. He asked me how I knew about the 16's as Gibson has not even marketed them yet. He said that they are selling them as they come in and that Gibson was having trouble meeting demand. From what I'm seeing the 16's are becoming quite an attractive option. I just need to play one but I haven't found one to get my hands on yet.

A 2013 what ? You still trying to stay at 2K ?

 

[engineer]

They had about eight 2015's hanging on the wall looking lonely. When I asked about the 2016's the salesman said that they got one in last week and it sold the same day.
The salesman at GC talked up the 15's. I just chalked that up to salesmanship. He especially promoted the zero fret nut which he lamented was going away on the 16's.

Did you try one?

I just loved the necks, so much better than previous models I have tested. Got a 2015 Classic for a steal since they slashed prices. Very nice finish on my Vintage Sunburst.
I've heard some has had problems with the nut but Gibson has sent these people new nuts, so I assume there isn't an issue with the idea. I mean being able to adjust the height of the nut is pretty good.

I have asked others if they are keeping the 2015 case for 2016 or if they have reverted that back too (which is a shame. The new case is awesome). From pictures I have seen it looks like they did a way with the removable pick guard as well, which is also a shame.

So, my advice.

I spent 4 years finding my first "real" guitar (the previous was my teen guitar, oh, i'm a singer) which became a Fender Tele Baja. After that I spent another 3 years finding a Les Paul.
Just got the Classic. eace2
For me the neck is really important. The Baja has a soft V neck so it's a little thicker neck. I love it. I always thought the 60s slim taper necks was a little thin and the 50s neck a bit too big.
So the 2015a are great for me with their extra....umm...girth?

Play as many as you can, and ask a lot of questions.
Don't sneeze at anything, just because someone told you it's not cool. (I played through all Epiphanies and PRS's and Hagströms I could get my hands on)
If you go into a store, act a little dumber than you are. You tend to get more questions answered plus you can check if the persons you meet bullshit you or are really interested in finding the guitar for you.

Hopefully, you will find what you're looking for!

 

[renderit]

If you are unopposed to used I might suggest a "player" grade 2013 or 2014 Historic. They are out there and I think they are hard to beat. If you need to watch prices closer a good used 2012 will certainly be acceptable, the fingerboard stuff does keep the prices lower and I doubt it will affect you at all as long as you know about it going in. A lot of Historics from all the years show up used at very good prices and there are not many I would turn my nose up at. Gibson has been doing really well on all of them. I like the 13 and 14's the best for R series but any historic will be good. Just try to play it first. I think their consistency got better in 13 and 14, I have not tried hardly any that did not sound fantastic with a little adjustment.

I had started answering a question to you earlier and zapped my answer because I was not sure I was correct. Ebony only shows up on Customs in the Historic LP line. Non historics I don't know for sure. It is also on ES series in the x5x types (355, 359, etc) and many higher level gibby's. It is usually described as a much brighter sounding wood. Used LP Customs go for good prices, but if you can't play it you want to think hard on it. I got away from LP's for years after one of those monsters made me ache and that was in my younger years. They can really be heavy. I would like to try one under 9 pounds myself. Have not found one yet when the dollars and the inclination lined up. They really sound miles different than a regular one.

 

[SteveMKentucky]

Did you try one?

...

No, I didn't. Honestly I just wasn't interested in the 15's and the 13 had issues I didn't want to deal with. I should have but interestingly the store wasn't as eager to have you play their guitars as other GC's I've been in. I asked about one of the 15's and they didn't even offer to pull it down. Brought the ES-335 over instead without hooking it up.

I was down in Jacksonville Fla a few weeks ago and stopped in to the GC there. They had a 78 LP that I showed interest in. The salesman immediately took it out of the case (they have a locked vintage case), hooked it to an amp and handed it to me. The 78 was only $1800 but it had some issues that I didn't know enough about to be interested in it. The guitar was a Second (stamped on the back). The tuners had been swapped out and the old holes were obvious. The finish was also a bit weird (which is probably why it was a second). The finish was inconsistent and the dark finish dropped out in places. The salesman said it was a collector due to the 'second' designation but I'm not looking for a second nor am I a collector.

Understand you taking lots of time to find the right guitar. There are just so many variations. I used to think that Les Paul's were pretty much the same except for pickups and finish. Boy was I wrong.

 

[SteveMKentucky]

If you are unopposed to used I might suggest a "player" grade 2013 or 2014 Historic. They are out there and I think they are hard to beat. If you need to watch prices closer a good used 2012 will certainly be acceptable, the fingerboard stuff does keep the prices lower and I doubt it will affect you at all as long as you know about it going in. A lot of Historics from all the years show up used at very good prices and there are not many I would turn my nose up at. Gibson has been doing really well on all of them. I like the 13 and 14's the best for R series but any historic will be good. Just try to play it first. I think their consistency got better in 13 and 14, I have not tried hardly any that did not sound fantastic with a little adjustment.

I had started answering a question to you earlier and zapped my answer because I was not sure I was correct. Ebony only shows up on Customs in the Historic LP line. Non historics I don't know for sure. It is also on ES series in the x5x types (355, 359, etc) and many higher level gibby's. It is usually described as a much brighter sounding wood. Used LP Customs go for good prices, but if you can't play it you want to think hard on it. I got away from LP's for years after one of those monsters made me ache and that was in my younger years. They can really be heavy. I would like to try one under 9 pounds myself. Have not found one yet when the dollars and the inclination lined up. They really sound miles different than a regular one.

For a second there I thought the cat got your tongue. Two posts with no words... Thanks for the info on the ebony. Interesting.

 

[renderit]

For a second there I thought the cat got your tongue. Two posts with no words... Thanks for the info on the ebony. Interesting.

No, there were actually 2 things going on there. The first was my response to another forum member that when I went back and reread it sounded REALLY snarky. I can get snarky but was not intending to there. I could not figure out an easy way other than deleting the post to de-snark it. Then I was not 100% sure on the answer to you because just when you are sure of something on an LP somebody shows you why you're wrong. I have never seen an ebony fingerboard on a production Historic Les Paul other than a Custom. There.

 

[engineer]

The first was my response to another forum member that when I went back and reread it sounded REALLY snarky. I can get snarky but was not intending to there. I could not figure out an easy way other than deleting the post to de-snark it.

Going OT, sorry.

I'm tipping my hat to you sir (Well, my imaginary one since I rarely wear hats).
I wish more people would think like you before posting in forums. I wonder how much more useful threads could be accomplished...

Thank you, and this drink is for you. :salude

 

[Boogie Bill]

In that price range, I would look for a used Les Paul 1960 Classic Plus or Premium Plus from 1991-1997. After that, they start getting a little strange. I like the ones with the ABR-1 bridge, and the weight-relieved body. You'll probably dig the Slim-Taper necks.

I'd put a set of Antiquitys or other top-line vintage PAFs in it, with an RS pot Kit, Schaller Strap Locks, a metal jackplate for reliability and a nickelled LW aluminum tailpiece, like the Gibson Historic ($$$) or the Gotoh from Stew-Mac ($) for an airier, more resonant tone. The 496R/500T pickup set was just too hot for my Mesa amps, but they're excellent for driving a non-master volume amp.

Mine are a '96 in HCSB (50th Anniversary A2 Seth Lovers) and a '97 in Honeyburst (Antiquitys). Excellent guitars, my favorite to play after my Historics which were much more expensive. The parts I've suggested with get you about 90% of the Historic vibe. Tops are gorgeous, and the Plus models typically have very vintage looking flame. The Plain Top Classics are typically priced much lower and can also be good values if you don't need the flame. Caution though--many have the dreaded "Clown Burst".

The Custom Shop Pauls Gibson did for Guitar Center, the G0 models, are highly desirable but climbing in price. And keep an eye out for one of the fancier models, like the Elegant or a Class 5, etc. Sometimes you can find a great deal on one.

But a good guitar is where you find it, so play a lot of guitars.

Bill