Murphy Lab brittle finish (2022 ML R9)

[charliechitlins]

Here is Real checking from age. Not sure what Murphy lab did wrong but as you can see even after 60+ years flaking is not a thing.

What they did "wrong" was give people what they want.
We demanded a 5-week-old guitar that looks like it's 50 years old, then wanted it to age 10 more years every year.
There's a great passage in Zorba the Greek, where he tries to help a butterfly struggling to come out of its cocoon.
He peels it back, lovingly blows on the butterfly to dry it, it finally opens its wings, ready to fly...then it shrivels and dies.
He realizes that you just can't rush nature.

 

[poor man's burst]

Great point! Since it is for looks only sealing it would have been the solution!

Realty is more complicated than that. Finish layers are not like pages in a book. Nitrocellulosic finishes are a solid matter diluted in a solvent. When you spray a layer of finish on top of another, the solvent in the new coat melts the top of the former layer. I once had a nitro finish checking in an unexpected and unwanted manner during a refinishing process due to an accidental termal shock. All the guitar was covered with small (about 3-4mm) squares. Having nothing to lose, I tried a last chance shot. I sprayed the heaviest possible layer of very diluted finish and let it cure. Next day, all the checking had disappeared.

 

[charliechitlins]

I have applied lacquer with a brush and it can almost be like magic the way checking disappears.
The problem with a lot of the ML stuff seems to not be the checking, but adhesion.
The pieces drop off, which seems to happen to "real" aged guitars very seldom.
It could be due to preparation, but I'm much more likely to believe that, in the process of formulating a finish that will "age" so quickly, the ability to adhere was formulated out.

 

[Wizard1183]

Here is Real checking from age. Not sure what Murphy lab did wrong but as you can see even after 60+ years flaking is not a thing.

They stuck it in the freezer for too damn long not to mention I don’t think the paint is fully cured before the clear. It’s gonna happen when you’re going to fast to produce as many as possible in a given yr. I get the profit they’re trying to make but more ppl are happy spending $10-18k on a ML so the out worrying what’s going to happen in a yr or 5 or 10. It’s what ppl want so they gotta deal with it. You can actually force age it to look like real checking. But you won’t be selling many guitars doing it that way

 

[Flogger]

They stuck it in the freezer for too damn long not to mention I don’t think the paint is fully cured before the clear. It’s gonna happen when you’re going to fast to produce as many as possible in a given yr. I get the profit they’re trying to make but more ppl are happy spending $10-18k on a ML so the out worrying what’s going to happen in a yr or 5 or 10. It’s what ppl want so they gotta deal with it. You can actually force age it to look like real checking. But you won’t be selling many guitars doing it that way

Nitro sinks into the wood over time. My mirror smooth 2016 Firebird is no longer mirror smooth. ML finishes check before the Nitro digs it's toes into the wood, so it flakes.

 

[AA00475Bassman]

A lot of very informative posts- good reading - Thank you

 

[Blind Lemon Chicken]

Seems like more ageing than he paid for. Wait for the toes to dig in rub some dirt into it and play it..

 

[Wizard1183]

Nitro sinks into the wood over time. My mirror smooth 2016 Firebird is no longer mirror smooth. ML finishes check before the Nitro digs its toes into the wood, so it flakes.

That was my point. They shoved it in the freezer and kept it there overnight when its basically still wet.

 

[metropolis]

Nitro won't check unless it's fully cured so putting an uncured (or 'wet') finish in a freezer won't achieve anything.

 

[AA00475Bassman]

I can see the finish by the heel has lifted away from the wood - This is not accurate as to the progression of finish checking - the finish is lifting . I would much rather own my razor blade job looks more realistic , ML really has something drastically wrong with Formula of finish or procedures of everything related to finish . At age of 67 I can't recall seeing unintentional checking with this degree of finish lift - non adhesion of finish , at this point the posted heavy ML finish in my subjective opinion is not accurate or acceptable.

 

[Wizard1183]

Nitro won't check unless it's fully cured so putting an uncured (or 'wet') finish in a freezer won't achieve anything.

Well perhaps you’re right, but my thought still stands. Freezer wayy too long

 

[renderit]

Looks to me like it was shot "too dry" i.e. the finish was actually drying BEFORE hitting the wood.

Also looks like clouding and fisheye.

Too much solvent (or wrong type, fast vs slow) and too little retarder and/or too high a pressure.

Shooting on a day with little humidity requires different speed solvents than a high humidity day.

Back in the day we had to adjust for all these things.

Then they changed shit because of government health findings and subsequent restrictions and went to HPLV which just made it harder to get a decent finish and changed some of the rules as you could not shoot as fine.

(And yes, if the findings were right, the nitro finishes before looked better and lasted longer but literally killed the sprayers (and I believe them).)

I think the above statement of too soon and too long in the freezer could be right as well, but I never spent time trying to f**k up all the work I just did so I'll have to defer to those who do...

 

[charliechitlins]

They stuck it in the freezer for too damn long not to mention I don’t think the paint is fully cured before the clear.

Are you a painter/finisher?
How many freezer-checked finishes have you done?

 

[charliechitlins]

Looks to me like it was shot "too dry" i.e. the finish was actually drying BEFORE hitting the wood.

Also looks like clouding and fisheye.

Too much solvent (or wrong type, fast vs slow) and too little retarder and/or too high a pressure.

Shooting on a day with little humidity requires different speed solvents than a high humidity day.

Back in the day we had to adjust for all these things.

Then they changed shit because of government health findings and subsequent restrictions and went to HPLV which just made it harder to get a decent finish and changed some of the rules as you could not shoot as fine.

(And yes, if the findings were right, the nitro finishes before looked better and lasted longer but literally killed the sprayers (and I believe them).)

I think the above statement of too soon and too long in the freezer could be right as well, but I never spent time trying to f**k up all the work I just did so I'll have to defer to those who do...

I remember when we used to get out early in the morning (before the bugs), spray down the driveway (to avoid stirring up dust) and paint cars.
Lacquer was so great.
All but the worst mistakes could just be sanded smooth.

 

[jb_abides]

Food for thought: people are opining about the new ML finish as 'how Nitro behaves...' AS-IF they know the formula including adjunct composition e.g. plasticizer content, other additives and fully understand how the new composition's properties contribute to the behavior of the resultant finish. They don't: it's proprietary and unknown.

To wit, I remember when people pried VOS finish off and it bent in large swaths instead of chipping and folks were quick to say, 'see, so much plastic!' so let's not act like ML is 'Nitro' that folks shoot in their shops. We don't fully know what's going on....

 

[charliechitlins]

Food for though: people are opining about the new ML finish as 'how Nitro behaves...' AS-IF they know the formula including adjunct composition e.g. plasticizer content, other additives and fully understand how the new composition's properties contribute to the behavior of the resultant finish. They don't: it's proprietary and unknown.

To wit, I remember when people pried VOS finish off and it bent in large swaths instead of chipping and folks were quick to say, 'see, so much plastic!' so let's not act like ML is 'Nitro' that folks shoot in their shops. We don't fully know what's going on....

Yes!
Good reminder.
I remember the incidents to which you refer.
Although I have shot my share of lacquer, I am not "a painter".
Despite the words of the keyboard nitro experts, I'm pretty sure that there is no plastic in the plasticisers added to lacquer.
A plasticiser IS an agent added to make a finish more flexible, but I don't think you can add actual plastic to lacquer.

 

[Wizard1183]

Are you a painter/finisher?
How many freezer-checked finishes have you done?

One. My own. And it ain’t flaking off. But I didn’t overnight it. And it is definitely not a ML checking job

 

[jb_abides]

Yes!
Good reminder.
I remember the incidents to which you refer.
Although I have shot my share of lacquer, I am not "a painter".
Despite the words of the keyboard nitro experts, I'm pretty sure that there is no plastic in the plasticisers added to lacquer.
A plasticiser IS an agent added to make a finish more flexible, but I don't think you can add actual plastic to lacquer.

Indeed.

FWIW: ALL substances that demonstrate the property of plasticity can be properly deemed plastic -- even Bakelite (a phenolic resin) -- but also very true most people commonly refer to the plastics derived from polyethylene polymers as 'Plastic'.

 

[AA00475Bassman]

Indeed.

FWIW: ALL substances that demonstrate the property of plasticity can be properly deemed plastic -- even Bakelite (a phenolic resin) -- but also very true most people commonly refer to the plastics derived from polyethylene polymers as 'Plastic'.

Why has my 2007 R8 not checked when place out in - 34 low - 16 high for days - brought in a warm house ? How is it a ML cracks I find it could be finish formula although I'm pretty much a moron when it comes to guitar finish . Thank you in advance !

 

[jb_abides]

Why has my 2007 R8 not checked when place out in - 34 low - 16 high for days - brought in a warm house ? How is it a ML cracks I find it could be finish formula although I'm pretty much a moron when it comes to guitar finish . Thank you in advance !

For simplicity: Let's call pre-ML finish 'VOS Nitro' even though it was also used for Gloss Reissues with more polishing, OK?

'VOS Nitro' has more plasticizers than old school 'Vintage Nitro' and certainly possesses a different formulation than the new 'ML Nitro' [verified per Gibson; both Tom Murphy and Mat Koehler have stated as much]. As such, VOS is more resistant to weather checking; it was formulated to be more stable and durable by design as it ages.

Although temperature extremes have worked on VOS in the past, the check patterns don't always comport with some folks' perception of what an authentic aged appearance should look like e.g. different crack patterns and orientations might result, etc. [Win some, Lose some.]

The more prolific method of relic'ing VOS was using a razor, as Tom Murphy did extensively until switching to his new formula / process.

Other relic'ing makeover shops typically stripped the VOS Nitro and re-finished the entire guitar with a more traditional old school Nitro finish, then worked out how to do their own version of temperature variations to yield controlled weather relic'ing. That's why there's criticism of Gibson's ML Freeze: the ML formula and scale of the freezer process doesn't necessarily yield results akin to what more adept makeover shops have been able to produce prior to ML.