CITES and the Vintage market

[Tweety]

Hi Everyone

I'd be interested in knowing anyone thoughts on how the CITES rules will affect the vintage guitar market particularly regarding Braz rosewood. If I understand the rules correctly if you want to import a vintage Les Paul from the US into Europe you need both export and import CITES documentation, I'll still not sure if you can resell the guitar at later date in your own country, I know in Germany at one point you could not resell the guitar.

I've spoken to a few US dealers who are not shipping to Europe at the moment. Is it a good time to buy a vintage Les Paul or not, especially if you are based in Europe.

Love to hear your thoughts

 

[Tom Wittrock]

Hi Everyone

I'd be interested in knowing anyone thoughts on how the CITES rules will affect the vintage guitar market particularly regarding Braz rosewood. If I understand the rules correctly if you want to import a vintage Les Paul from the US into Europe you need both export and import CITES documentation, I'll still not sure if you can resell the guitar at later date in your own country, I know in Germany at one point you could not resell the guitar.

I've spoken to a few US dealers who are not shipping to Europe at the moment.

Is it a good time to buy a vintage Les Paul or not, especially if you are based in Europe.



Love to hear your thoughts

If you want it for yourself, it's almost always a good time. :salude

 

[Yamariv]

Hi Everyone

I'd be interested in knowing anyone thoughts on how the CITES rules will affect the vintage guitar market particularly regarding Braz rosewood. If I understand the rules correctly if you want to import a vintage Les Paul from the US into Europe you need both export and import CITES documentation, I'll still not sure if you can resell the guitar at later date in your own country, I know in Germany at one point you could not resell the guitar.

I've spoken to a few US dealers who are not shipping to Europe at the moment. Is it a good time to buy a vintage Les Paul or not, especially if you are based in Europe.

Love to hear your thoughts

I'm currently trying to source the right Vintage Junior from the US(I'm in Canada) and after tonnes of research on Cites rules I'm now calling myself somewhat of an expert on Cites in North America..Lol. No clue about (Europe though)

Braz is the pain because it is higher level of protected wood under the CITES treaty. So, to bring a Braz boarded Guitar Legally from the US into Canada you will need an Export Permit from the US and an Import permit from Canada and the same for the other direction. Since a Vintage instrument would have been made before 1992, it is exempt from Cites but you need the Cites permit to confirm it was made before 1992. Once the guitar is in your country, you can sell it as many times as you'd like as long as you don't sell it to someone across the Border. You can cross the border with a Braz Guitar that you already own with no issue. Hope that helps! (I learn't all this fun info by speaking with our Canadian Gov Cites approval lady, she was super helpful and knowledgeable. )

 

[Tweety]

I'm currently trying to source the right Vintage Junior from the US(I'm in Canada) and after tonnes of research on Cites rules I'm now calling myself somewhat of an expert on Cites in North America..Lol. No clue about (Europe though)

Braz is the pain because it is higher level of protected wood under the CITES treaty. So, to bring a Braz boarded Guitar Legally from the US into Canada you will need an Export Permit from the US and an Import permit from Canada and the same for the other direction. Since a Vintage instrument would have been made before 1992, it is exempt from Cites but you need the Cites permit to confirm it was made before 1992. Once the guitar is in your country, you can sell it as many times as you'd like as long as you don't sell it to someone across the Border. You can cross the border with a Braz Guitar that you already own with no issue. Hope that helps! (I learn't all this fun info by speaking with our Canadian Gov Cites approval lady, she was super helpful and knowledgeable. )

Many thanks for you response it's much appreciated.

I've had a chat with a very helpful guy from UK Customs who confirmed that if importing a guitar with Brazilian rosewood from the US in a commercial transaction, all export and import documentation must be in place before the transaction is made. As far as resale is concerned, if in the EU you will need an Article 10 Sales Cert, but you must be able to prove that the guitar was imported legally to get the Certificate. In fact I believe any guitar for sale with Braz wood needs one of these anyway (pre 1992).
You can also bring the guitar over by hand where it will be classed as a personal item but I believe you still need the appropriate import and export docs.

In conclusion he said get all the paperwork done before the transaction but finally stated it would be better to buy a guitar that is listed on Appendices 2 ie Indian rosewood.

 

[lewis_grey]

Shipping Braz even within the EU is illegal without the correct documentation. Early this year I did a deal with a guy in Germany, we figured with the risk plus the shipping, insurance and PayPal fees involved it was easiest and not that much more expensive for one of us to simply fly over and travel with the guitar as hand luggage and deal in person. In the end he came over and had a long weekend in London, we had a drink together, talked guitars and it was a thoroughly pleasant way to do business.

If you’re in the U.K./EU and looking to buy vintage I’d advise keeping your search within the EU and being prepared to travel as about the least risky way of doing it outside of getting the right paperwork (which I believe is actually impossible in most cases), buying from the states is just too risky now.

 

[Tweety]

Shipping Braz even within the EU is illegal without the correct documentation. Early this year I did a deal with a guy in Germany, we figured with the risk plus the shipping, insurance and PayPal fees involved it was easiest and not that much more expensive for one of us to simply fly over and travel with the guitar as hand luggage and deal in person. In the end he came over and had a long weekend in London, we had a drink together, talked guitars and it was a thoroughly pleasant way to do business.

If you’re in the U.K./EU and looking to buy vintage I’d advise keeping your search within the EU and being prepared to travel as about the least risky way of doing it outside of getting the right paperwork (which I believe is actually impossible in most cases), buying from the states is just too risky now.

Thanks for your response Lewis. Does this mean that if you buy within the EU and travel to collect the guitar as opposed to shipping, you don't need the Article 10 Sales Cert?, or any other paperwork?

 

[lewis_grey]

Thanks for your response Lewis. Does this mean that if you buy within the EU and travel to collect the guitar as opposed to shipping, you don't need the Article 10 Sales Cert?, or any other paperwork?

Unfortunately I don’t think so, but travelling with an old guitar as your hand luggage doesn’t tend to raise many eyebrows. When it’s shipped it will always have to go through customs where there is every possibility it will be picked up, especially now ALL rosewood has shipping restrictions!

It’s crazy this is even something we have to consider with our vintage guitars but the law is black and white, no room for common sense.

 

[neuroy]

A friend of mine, US-citizen, is working on a US Airbase in Germany ( what is regarded as US territory ).
If he buys a vintage guitar with BRW and get it shipped to his Base, would borders have been crossed ?
Will he need some paperwork to let the guitar shipped ?
Or is it just like a inside US shipping with no customs involved.

Again: he is working for the government, and the guitar would be for educational purpose.

 

[Tom Wittrock]

A friend of mine, US-citizen, is working on a US Airbase in Germany ( what is regarded as US territory ).
If he buys a vintage guitar with BRW and get it shipped to his Base, would borders have been crossed ?
Will he need some paperwork to let the guitar shipped ?
Or is it just like a inside US shipping with no customs involved.

Again: he is working for the government, and the guitar would be for educational purpose.

Might depend on whether the shipment is directly to the base, or does it land in Germany first? :hmm
Shipping method might make a difference also. Maybe US Postal Service goes direct while shipping companies might not? There should be someone on his base that knows the answer.

 

[garywright]

I was sweatin it big time two years ago when my 2k r9 dropped off the chart ( shipped from Sweden to the US ) for five days in Germany ...I can't imagine what it would feel like having a vintage guitar under scrutiny

 

[Hotshot]

I travel a ton for work from US to CAN.

I asked him if I buy a guitar from the US and bring to Can, am I going to get caught up in this Cites thing if I buy a new R9 in the US. Here’s what he told me.

Stay 48hrs so you get the $800 off right away.

Show up with it in person, no one really cares. He said, if it’s new, and on a guitar the rosewood is treaded and therefore not an issue. Also, it’s a guitar... it’s not like that neck is going to be used as a building piece.

I asked about old brazilian wood from a vintage instrument. Again... he said, it’s a finished guitar that’s easily traced, most officers wouldn’t care.

Now, if you go through a shipper, that’s when paperwork’s involved. New guitars and big stores have the paperwork.

Vintage, a little more work.


Again, show up in person is the best option.