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Best early Marshall 4x12 w/ 20w greenback replica?

pb23r

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Jan 13, 2005
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Bern1 - received my Scumback slant cab w/ 20 watt PVC and EC Bluesbreaker cloth. Lots of cabs to compare to - but most relevant is comparing broken-in Celestion Heritage to 20 watt PVC in identical cabs. I prefer Jim's speakers - especially at full throttle.
 

bern1

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Nov 23, 2004
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Henk, I love vintage equipment but I'm concerned about whether vintage Celestions will hold up and what they will cost. Particularly if I want pinstripe era stuff, I'm just not going to find it here and/or I won't want to pay what it's going to cost.
Pb23r, thanks for letting me know, sounds like the endorsement I expected!
I like the Scumnicos but if the PVC's are indeed a tad brighter, I will like them more.
We'll see what happens, I'll let y'all know!
Cheers,
Bernie
 

pb23r

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Jan 13, 2005
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Love the old stuff too... but it's hit and miss - and definitely *caveat emptor* :note
 

Roe

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Apr 6, 2006
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461
the scumback PVCs seem to be the best recreation of the old 20watters. I'm getting a quad of these myself in a scumback cab
 

v-verb

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Jul 16, 2001
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I vote 20 watter in pintripe type cab, having owned this 71 with transitional Rola's
71DSCN4072.jpg

and I still have and prefer this 67 with 20 watters
P1040076.jpg
 

bern1

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Nov 23, 2004
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V-Verb, that pinstripe cab with 20w speaks looks the bomb and I'm sure sounds the same. I'll have to be content with the Scumback PVC's, sounds like they will come close!
 

v-verb

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V-Verb, that pinstripe cab with 20w speaks looks the bomb and I'm sure sounds the same. I'll have to be content with the Scumback PVC's, sounds like they will come close!

Thanks Bern!

Jim at Scumback is great - his speakers will be spot on!

Cheers

nigel
 

philthyphil

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Mar 24, 2010
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I have one of the Metropoulos 1968 True Replica Strait cabs . Its awesome . I had some G-12H(55) from the mid 70s in it for a while that sounded very good . I know some guys around here don't like them but I put in a set of Celestion Heritage Series G12H (75) .
The cab with this set up sounds killer !!!! As much as I love and own the vintage stuff Im really into the the options that are out there today .
One thing I keep in mind is all of the great players we all listen to were using amps and guitars that were not that old at the time .
They were not playing on cabs that were beat on for 30+ years . Any of the true greats could play threw any amp threw any cab and make it sound great !!
 

shinrock

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Feb 10, 2003
Messages
187
You can find empty jcm era cabs and redo them for pennies on the dollar. 1000 t
0 1500 for replica cab hurts my ears
 

Henk

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Jul 9, 2009
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You can find empty jcm era cabs and redo them for pennies on the dollar. 1000 t
0 1500 for replica cab hurts my ears

Youve got a point, the early JCM800 cabs are perfect to use for such a cab project.

I must say i do understand people not wanting to use old amps, failing electical parts can be a big hazard. But i personally have played amps that have all been 30+ years old since i started playing guitar and ive seen wayyy more brandnew amps failing at gigs then old ones. The biggest problem with old amps ive ever had is when i had to put new tubes in and the amp had to be set less hot then before. Im guessing that for safety reasons tubes have a factory currency value that is less then what they used to make them for and they have to set the bias accordingly. In the 25 yrs ive had and gigged over 10 vintage amps and the only one that failed i had just bought and it had been modded heavily(in a bad way).

The thing that i really cant understand, exept for the part where availability is an issue, why people have doubts about a CAB! Mine are 50 years old, and there is nothing that can break or fail on them unless it involves heavy machinery. Yes the cones can tear, but not without an obvious accident involving mayor stupidity!

And im sorry, but its exactly the same with reproduction LPs or PAFs, they might come much closer to the original sound, but they really are worlds apart!

I really wish ppl would mind the complete chain and not only the guitar, it seems everyone knows what they are looking for, but just dont like the hassle or simply still think the most destinctive factor in tone is a guitar. Ohwell........

Excuse the rant Bern1
 

bern1

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Nov 23, 2004
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It's all right Henk, I do plenty of ranting myself.
I also have vintage speakers, they are in Fender amps. There, I know what I should be listening for and I kind of know what I'm doing. When it comes to Celestions, I really don't know, so that factors in as well.
I'm going down to Jim's shop in a couple of weeks. I'll take my 56 Les Paul PAF conversion along with my Metro JTM and see what I like!
Last week I used my 2x12 cab with Scumnicos and it sounded so great I started wondering why I was looking for something else...ah the madness of searching for the "holy grail"...ha ha.
 

Henk

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...ah the madness of searching for the "holy grail"...ha ha.

What madness? :salude

Someone from my email contacts said this when i was kind of fixated on that holy grail tone thing once again....(translated not perfectly)

They might be long apart an GAS may fill your dreams......
But if it comes across your path, buy it and make it your own, i know i do...... :2cool

I answered that i wished that the tonegods wouldn't take so much longer each time they would toss something on my path....

Then he said, they do that on purpose just to make sure you 'get' everything they gave to you....

Then i said, IGETITIGETIT! Now COMMON WITH THAT GIT YOU LAZY TONEDEVIL!!!! :hee

All in good fun obviously...



I'm often taking trips just to try stuff out that seems interesting, ive gotten some great contacts that way. If you know what your best vintage Fender amp sounds like vs. a reproduction youll have a clear notion about what to expect from vintage celestions vs new reproductions. In terms of solid value the vintage 25 w greenbacks with 75hz cones (T1221) are the most sought after. I have 2 of these and i also use them in combination with the T1511 in my marshall cab.

Tonally the 20s arent that different from the 25w greenbacks, the 20s(ill just call earlier G12M greenbacks 20s) seem to sound a bit softer and at amp break up and behave a bit more gentile and even if you ask me. A greenback reproduction in a 65w version would be something like a G12-65 or even V30, which i think are in terms of breakup and vibe not in the same league.

The differences between all the 20w and 25w vintage greenbacks are marginal though and preferences are subjective. The 30w rated greenbacks have larger magnets and sound creamier and a bit more scooped to my ears, again just small differences.

The 55cone greenbacks sound a bit deeper/fuller then the 75hz G12M greenbacks, also have a rougher edge at amp breakup. The 75hz have a sweeter high range. All vintage G12M 20/25w greenbacks excell at their vintage and even tone reproduction IMHO, new reproduction celestion greenbacks just sound bland and boring to me.

Note that i dont have any 1on1 experience with Scumback speakers though, maybe they are that much closer to the originals, i cant tell from crappy youtube clips. What i can see on their website youll probably need to check the G12M speakers, the G12H Greenbacks are the late 60s greenbacks and should have the larger 30w magnets with 75hz cones(in the beginning they were still rated at 25w and often still had the 55hz bass cones).

For more in depth tech info, check here:

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=67646

Another long rant...... :hmm

Anyway,

Greetings and have fun, Henk
 

bern1

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Nov 23, 2004
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Thanks Henk. What you say as to the difference between the 20 and 25w versions is what I feel when I listen to the recordings. For example I assume Taylor is using 20w speakers on Crusade and I love that sound. I always go for the smoother, earlier breakup version of anything.

I much prefer the sound of Hendrix at Monterey with pinstripe cabs as opposed to the later Hendrix stuff, which I suspect has bigger magnets. (I know the amps changed too.)

Thanks for Jim's chart, I've seen it before but as I mentioned, I don't think I'm going to be able to find anything original and affordable these days in southern California. Who knows though, anything can happen if I keep my eyes open!
 

Henk

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Thanks Henk. What you say as to the difference between the 20 and 25w versions is what I feel when I listen to the recordings. For example I assume Taylor is using 20w speakers on Crusade and I love that sound. I always go for the smoother, earlier breakup version of anything.

I much prefer the sound of Hendrix at Monterey with pinstripe cabs as opposed to the later Hendrix stuff, which I suspect has bigger magnets. (I know the amps changed too.)

Thanks for Jim's chart, I've seen it before but as I mentioned, I don't think I'm going to be able to find anything original and affordable these days in southern California. Who knows though, anything can happen if I keep my eyes open!

Ive found a 68(if i remember correctly) supertrem for sale once, so much tone and vibe any plexi would turn green :hee. The rarity premium was just too much though. Good 60s Marshall cabinets are rare and expensive over here in europe aswell and the premium you pay for them is high.

That said, its funny how vintage prices relate to eachother, early 70s stuff(Gibson, Marshall, Fender) is plentyfull and relatively cheap. I rather take my pick out of those then persue the ultimate goal. If vintage tone is composed out of guitar, amp and cabinet/speakers and those are equally important tonally, it should be worth investing time and money in. Its exactly like with the Gibson or fender reissues, they can reproduce the looks but not the tone.

I do agree with you that the speaker magnets are the key feature, like the transformers in an amp or the wood in a guitar. There are early 70s greenbacks with 75hz cones and the 20/25w magnets like i have. Yes they sound marginally different then the 'original' 20wers but they are alot cheaper. Ordering a pair of those trough a dealer with a good reputation wouldn't be too much of a risk i think.

I love that early Hendrix tone, but i also think that alot of the difference in tone is because of the multi stacks he is using later on and the higher level of fuzz/distortion.
 

bern1

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Nov 23, 2004
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Ok, thanks Henk. I hadn't visited this thread in a while. I've made peace again with my existing "BB" setup.....we'll see how long it lasts!
 

Roe

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Apr 6, 2006
Messages
461
got my scumback straight 4x12" with EC cloth and pvc 20watters. sounded absolutely great at our rehearsal room. the cab itself sounded a little tighter and less boomy than my mojo 4x12". the 20watters had great bite, detail and fatness with more compression than the h75 30watters
 

bern1

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Nov 23, 2004
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Thanks Roe, that's what I'll order up when it's time!
 
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