• Guys, we've spent considerable money converting the Les Paul Forum to this new XenForo platform, and we have ongoing monthly operating expenses. THE "DONATIONS" TAB IS NOW WORKING, AND WE WOULD APPRECIATE ANY DONATIONS YOU CAN MAKE TO KEEP THE LES PAUL FORUM GOING! Thank you!

Best early Marshall 4x12 w/ 20w greenback replica?

shakti

Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2007
Messages
494
And in response to the original poster:

I've played through a couple of cabs equipped with oiginal 20W white untreated paper voice coil G12Ms. One was a '66 cab that I mentioned above, the other were two '66 Marshall PA cabs, belonging to forum member torger. Both shared tonal similarities - slightly brighter, more aggressive (but in a musical way), chewy and more open on top compared to my '69-70 cabs with G12Ms.

I've got a Hendrix reissue stack which I've upgraded with EC Collins pinstripe cloth, and improved the internal bracing to original specs (the new cabs don't have the same internal support, which does have a very noticeable effect). It's now equipped with Scumback M75-PVCs. I couldn't be happier with the sound of those speakers! While they will probably only sound better with even more break-in, they sound very, very close to how I remember those original 20-watters I've tried. While auditive memory is very fickle, I can compare them side by side with my later era ('69-70) greenbacks, and they compare very favourably, while having those white paper voice coil characteristics: more snarly, more detailed treble, but still smooth and musical. Superbly tight bass, much better in that respect than the later 25W G12Ms which can get a little muffly/muddy, but still warm, fat, swirly mids. They seem to have a slightly different mid peak...best I can describe it is they have more of an upper mid peak where the 25W ones have a low mid peak. They respond beautifully to a lot of volume...unfortunately I don't dare play a JTM45/100 at length into a 4x12 without attenuation, but they sound amazing when I do! *Very* Fresh Cream-like.
 

E-Rock

Member
Joined
Dec 11, 2002
Messages
273
Just a few points that need clarification:

As far as I know, there is no correlation between cone type and voice coil. The untreated white paper voice coil was used both with H1777 cones and 102 003 cones. These co-existed for a while in '66 before the 102 003 was used exclusively from then on. There's even some debate as to whether these cones are any different at all. I've seen 4x12s with original speakers where some had 102 003s and some had H1777s, even though the date codes were matching (April '66, IIRC).

The transition to the brown, treated paper voice coils was sometime in early to mid '68, AFAIK. You can't tell by the cone code whether it has the earlier or later type voice coil. I'm not sure if the wattage uprating from 20 to 25W coincided with the change of voice coil former material, but that would only make sense as the treated paper has a higher temperature rating, and could thus withstand more power. There was a period in early '68 with 20W labels on the speakers but with small "25" stickers applied over the 20W printing. They probably used up their old stock of labels after the speaker design had changed and the power rating upgraded. These small stickers have often fallen off, which could explain why "basketweave 20-watters sound different"...probably because they're technically not 20W at all!

The bottom line is you need to know what type of voice coil you have, as the labels on early '68 G12Ms may not be correct.

It also appears that pinstripe and basketweave cabs may have been made simultaneously for a short period in early '68. At least date codes on speakers in those transitional cabs have overlapping date codes.

Thanks for the clarification, shakti...you definitely said it better than me! :salude

Just curious - have you ever seen a basketweave cab factory-loaded with '67 date-coded speakers?
 

shakti

Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2007
Messages
494
Thanks for the clarification, shakti...you definitely said it better than me! :salude

Just curious - have you ever seen a basketweave cab factory-loaded with '67 date-coded speakers?

No, but I am in no way an expert in the field. All I know is what I've learnt from a few knowledgeable guys, from being critical of any "evidence" put forth, and piecing together information. A BW cab with '67 date code speakers is entirely possible, but could just mean that the speakers sat on the shelf for a little while before being put into a cab.

BTW, there's footage of Hendrix at some show in London(?) around Christmas 1967. In some photos it looks like the backline has BW cabs, but the photos are grainy and it's hard to tell. It looks like it was a Marshall-sponsored event, as the backline looks brand new, and there's a large Marshall banner by the stage ("Go over big with Marshall" or whatever it was.

Has anyone else seen it, and does it look like BW cabs to you? If those cabs were BW; that would probably be the earliest known appearance of BW. But they could be pinstripe too.
 

E-Rock

Member
Joined
Dec 11, 2002
Messages
273
BTW, there's footage of Hendrix at some show in London(?) around Christmas 1967. In some photos it looks like the backline has BW cabs, but the photos are grainy and it's hard to tell. It looks like it was a Marshall-sponsored event, as the backline looks brand new, and there's a large Marshall banner by the stage ("Go over big with Marshall" or whatever it was.

Has anyone else seen it, and does it look like BW cabs to you? If those cabs were BW; that would probably be the earliest known appearance of BW. But they could be pinstripe too.

Yes, that's the "Christmas On Earth Continued" show from Dec. 22, 1967 at the London Olympia - with SEVEN full stacks and two PA cabs on stage! Watch the clip below in 1080p and pay attention to the spots where the camera focuses closeup on Jimi at the mic (like around 9:25)...the "shading" on the cloth looks like pinstripe to me (but I could be wrong):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVTgpa6qJ08
 
Last edited:

goldtop0

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 19, 2003
Messages
8,445
Yes, that's the "Christmas On Earth Continued" show from Dec. 22, 1967 at the London Olympia - with SEVEN full stacks and two PA cabs on stage! Watch the clip below in 1080p and pay attention to the spots where the camera focuses closeup on Jimi at the mic (like around 9:25)...the "shading" on the cloth looks like pinstripe to me (but I could be wrong):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVTgpa6qJ08


I can just see Jim Marshall rubbing his hands with glee while selling those stacks to Jimi.............who could blame him!!
 

bern1

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 23, 2004
Messages
1,241
Well all right, thanks for the responses and ideas. To summarize, it seems most likely that basket weave has 25w and and a pinstripe 20w. Are these ceramic magnets or alnico?

It seems pinstripe goes with the 20w speakers. With the pinstripe having somewhat "opaque" sound qualities, it seems this combo would have its own sound, that of Fresh Cream perhaps?

Can anybody tell if the cabinet Taylor is using in the pic I posted is basket weave or pinstripe?

Shakti's description sounds like what I'd want. I've got a feeling that I'm going to get that ridiculously expensive pinstripe cloth in addition to the scumback pvc 20's and Jim's cabinet.... unless I get tempted by something like this:

a 2032 tall cab from Larkstreet's site. Do these tall cabs sound different?

http://www.larkstreetmusic.com/stock.html

Thanks all!

Bernie
 

E-Rock

Member
Joined
Dec 11, 2002
Messages
273
Well all right, thanks for the responses and ideas. To summarize, it seems most likely that basket weave has 25w and and a pinstripe 20w. Are these ceramic magnets or alnico?

Ceramic.

Can anybody tell if the cabinet Taylor is using in the pic I posted is basket weave or pinstripe?

Pinstripe - the top strap handles on that cab indicate it is a '66 or early '67 model. Likely had G12M 20w Greenbacks with untreated white PVC formers and either H1777 or 102 003 cones.

a 2032 tall cab from Larkstreet's site. Do these tall cabs sound different?

Cool cab - probably sounds great! At least one of the speakers is a T1511, which is a 55 Hz bass speaker (but great for guitar!) - I'd ask for further details and closeup pics of each speaker's cone code (and possibly date stamps) so you know exactly what's in there.
 

Henk

New member
Joined
Jul 9, 2009
Messages
836
a 2032 tall cab from Larkstreet's site. Do these tall cabs sound different?

http://www.larkstreetmusic.com/stock.html

Thanks all!

Bernie

You are SOOOO ready to be part in the dark vintage Marshall zone! :applaude

That cab is great but very unpractical, all i can say about any kind of tall vintage Marshall cab is that they sound more open and articulate, not much but they do that to my ears. I would offer 2k on that cab at most, nice but very unpopular over on this side of the heringpond.

Now on to those speakers, the T1511 i my kind of speaker, there is nothing you can compare to that growl and earthy tone. The T1221 has a more sweet character to it, especially in the highs they dont break up as nasty, more flat overall response with my amps.

Ive had very little access to vintage 20s but unless i get my hands on a really great vintage JTM45 i dont like them as much as the 1511s. They do have similar properties to my ears, kind of a benchmark when it gets to lowend appreciation i suppose.

All in all, any of these vintage speakers wont work that well if you need plenty (gigfriendly) headroom, scumbacks do sound interesting in that respect.

Focus....:hmm

Greetings and try out as much as you can, Henk
 

goldtop0

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 19, 2003
Messages
8,445
You could get that 2032 cab but it's expensive........it'd be cheaper to put one together yourself like you've suggested wouldn't it??..........bet it would sound great too!!
 

bern1

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 23, 2004
Messages
1,241
Goldtop, yes I believe you are correct. I just saw it and wanted to get some idea on it. Looks great but as Henk pointed out, very impractical for most people, including myself.

I'll probably continue to follow the formula I've used for the last few years: vintage guitars and modern vintage reproduction amplification and speakers.
 

Henk

New member
Joined
Jul 9, 2009
Messages
836
I'll probably continue to follow the formula I've used for the last few years: vintage guitars and modern vintage reproduction amplification and speakers.

Changing amp and speakers also reflects heavily on your tone overall, you might not want to mess with that too much in one go. Note that i allready use my basketweave for 15 years and its a benchmark to me which makes it easier to add instead of change.....

Talking extensively over mail with a friend who uses vintage marshall amps and (nearly) has it all ampwise made me decide i wanted a bigger, more open/warm/cleanish tone with tons of headroom next to the broken up marshall tone i simply cant improve on with the 50w JCM800 and basketweave. I was looking at that point for a Super reverb fender combo or a Superbass and found a well serviced Superbass after a while. After trying to get that SB to work well with the greenbacks i decided that the cab just didnt fit the amp and got a 2x12 which would handle the load of the amp better. So now im back op the JCM800/greenback and have the basic tone settled for the SB with 2x12 which is exactly how i wanted it in the original idea i had. Offcourse im still looking for the better speakers for the 2x12, but the cab is really working well.

Sometimes i feel like a scraptrader though, matching old gear together
to get the best tone out of it rather then buying production 'matched' new gear. The last just never did deliver for me at least.

So a question back at you, what sound are you looking for and in which way will it improve on your amp benchmark. And what amp setup would that be? Im certainly no amp authority, but if you say 4x12 60s Marshall cab with 20Wers to me i would say youll get a great plexi brownsound with the JTM45(would rather have that one with a 2x12 with 20s) or even a 50w Plexi. Have you listened to clips of vintage bluesbreaker combos and such? What do they tell you?

Now something else. Modern speakers pair up ALOT better then vintage ones, making up for a very different tone to my ears. Probably some small changes or just a different builder makes a quad of them sound 'out-of-sync' with eachother somewhat. Is this the same with scumbacks? Or are they when compared to the originals, in sync perfectly?
 

Henk

New member
Joined
Jul 9, 2009
Messages
836
Just adding a mugshot of the pair....

amps.jpg
 

bern1

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 23, 2004
Messages
1,241
Well, here's what's on tap in the "English sound" department:

Metro-stack.jpg


The bottom cabinet is a Swanson 2x12 loaded with 2 30w Scumback Scumnicos. The top cabinet is a Swanson 1x12 loaded with a single 65w Scumnico. I don't use them together, they are stacked just to save room in the "studio."

The 2x12 is pretty close to an original Bluesbreaker combo. I tried to size it properly, considering I have a separate head. The single 12 is of course smaller and not as deep.

They both sound great but of the two, I actually prefer the 1x12 and use it a lot more, it's my gig rig. The 2x12 is a little "dark" sounding, as reported by some other Scumback users. It's huge sounding and really too much cabinet for the small places I play. Of course a reasonable person would ask why would I now want a 4x12??? Good question, I answer it below.

To answer your question, the original goal of the entire exercise was to get as close to the Beano sound as possible with modern reproduction gear. It's been moderately successful. It could get better. PVC's and an EC Collins grillecloth could get me closer I think. This thread is a reflection of my insane desire (not need of course) to have a 4x12.

Thanks again for all the responses, carry on and cheers!
 

goldtop0

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 19, 2003
Messages
8,445
I'll probably continue to follow the formula I've used for the last few years: vintage guitars and modern vintage reproduction amplification and speakers.


I've got one(amps+speakers) out of your formula there and we're going for the same Beano sound.
I've had the 20w celestions and 30w alnicos in the 2x12 1936 cab so far driven by my JTM45 clone head, and I'd have to say that for tone on the Beano album and tracks like Lonely Years/ Bernard Jenkins etc I'd err on the side of the alnicos.
 

Henk

New member
Joined
Jul 9, 2009
Messages
836
Thanks again for all the responses, carry on and cheers!

I took the time and listened to some of your audio clips last night. Nice playing, but compared to the Beano (say '66)Marshall Bluesbreaker tone those clips seem very 'polite' sounding to me. I love the subtle breakup when you dig in more though, very tastefull.

Thinking about headroom, i did get plenty out of the 90s bluesbreaker reissue i had, it had the stock greenback 25w reissues which sounded very nice and warm, and the combo sounded better as it was then with the amp plugged into the basketweave. I didnt like that reissue amp much though(like most marshall reissues by the way), the amp did sound rather dark to name one thing.

Thinking about this, i wouldnt go the 4x12 route but rather the 2x12 half open cab route with the JTM45. To drive 4 12" speakers i think you need a bigger amp then the JTM45, you might just aswell prove me wrong, but i think it cant be successfull. Probably a Twin or Super reverb 4x10 would offer a much more rewarding route for your music.

Clapton used silver alnico's in that bluesbreaker if i am correct and those scumnico's should come fairly close, so maybe you just need to pop the back of that 2x12 cab and crank it! :salude
 

bern1

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 23, 2004
Messages
1,241
Thanks for listening Henk, but none of that stuff is a Marshall and only one or maybe two overdubs is a Les Paul....my main gig/performance guitar is a Telecaster.

The Les Paul/Marshall/Beano stuff is mainly nostalgia and rock out on jam nights!
 

Henk

New member
Joined
Jul 9, 2009
Messages
836
Thanks for listening Henk, but none of that stuff is a Marshall and only one or maybe two overdubs is a Les Paul....my main gig/performance guitar is a Telecaster.

The Les Paul/Marshall/Beano stuff is mainly nostalgia and rock out on jam nights!

Yeah your on a Tele, i can compute that factor :biggrin:

Youve said earlier on your using a JTM45 clone and scumnico cabs and basically went mad on that 4x12 Marshall cab tone. Old Marshalls never have proven to be a bad investment to me at least. Maybe rocking out more would be next on the list? :hippy
 

bern1

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 23, 2004
Messages
1,241
Henk I'm all for rocking out more, I'm going to try! Seriously, thanks for taking the time to contribute.
 
Top