2017/2018 era Gibson les paul custom RI 1959

[hopkinwfg]

Hi there !! I would need advise from the gibson experts here on these 2017, 2018 2019 era before the Murphy lab release....

Prior to 2017 era... there was the 2015 true historic which they all have the historically accurate hardwares and construction wise which it interest me more was their hide glue on the wood joints, fingerboards and tops, their thin wet sanded nitro finishes with the unsheathed truss rod, slimmer neck profile and dished body top carvings.... these all has the true historic certificate stating as true historics.

I would like to know did the 2017, 2018, 2019 era R9 with regular certificate has the true historic appointments after they sort of discontinue the true historic series? Ie did they build these 2017 era R9 with least using hide glue, unsheathed truss rod and thinner finishes ? Or also with a slimmer profile neck and a more accurate dished top carving?

Its kinda confusing with 2015 having both R9 with true historic cert and other hand it has a non true historic R9 production... i supposed these were two different built appointments.....

And prior to 2017 did the true historic appointments carried over to their normal production ?

 

[CS Murphy 'R9]

Hi there !! I would need advise from the gibson experts here on these 2017, 2018 2019 era before the Murphy lab release....

Prior to 2017 era... there was the 2015 true historic which they all have the historically accurate hardwares and construction wise which it interest me more was their hide glue on the wood joints, fingerboards and tops, their thin wet sanded nitro finishes with the unsheathed truss rod, slimmer neck profile and dished body top carvings.... these all has the true historic certificate stating as true historics.

I would like to know did the 2017, 2018, 2019 era R9 with regular certificate has the true historic appointments after they sort of discontinue the true historic series? Ie did they build these 2017 era R9 with least using hide glue, unsheathed truss rod and thinner finishes ? Or also with a slimmer profile neck and a more accurate dished top carving?

Its kinda confusing with 2015 having both R9 with true historic cert and other hand it has a non true historic R9 production... i supposed these were two different built appointments.....

And prior to 2017 did the true historic appointments carried over to their normal production ?

Yes the 2017-to present all have the "upgrades" of the TH. as for the Hide glue ,that has been used on all Historics since 2013 for the neck joint and fingerboard attachment. The maple tops
were always glued with PHENOL FORMALDEHYDE resin not Hide glue. Please watch this,

 

[jb_abides]

After the 'True Historic' marketing era ended [and in the wake of the extended model nomenclature including Historic Select, Custom Select], the specifications were carried forward to subsequent Historic Reissue 'R' models.

Search further on LPF there are threads discussing these details already.

 

[CS Murphy 'R9]

and here is a good vid on the True historic Les paul's with EDWIN WILSON(RIP),

 

[hopkinwfg]

Thank you guys!! Am late on the game.... But how about the specifics like unsheathed truss rod ? (Truss rod condom) and a thinner nitro finishes? Do the carve of the R9 neck gone way thinner than those 2000s era?

Looks like these carried forward 2017 era R9 are very worth checking !!

but i have too many gibson, and heritage.... all are unique and different in character....

 

[CS Murphy 'R9]

Thank you guys!! Am late on the game.... But how about the specifics like unsheathed truss rod ? (Truss rod condom) and a thinner nitro finishes? Do the carve of the R9 neck gone way thinner than those 2000s era?

Looks like these carried forward 2017 era R9 are very worth checking !!

but i have too many gibson, and heritage.... all are unique and different in character....

2013 was the year the truss rod sheath was removed, hide glue used on neck joint and FB. As for the nitro the only LP's I know of that use a different nitro is the Murphy's.
It should be said there are incredible playing and sounding R9's from pre 2013. The 2013-present R9's are just a bit more historically accurate overall.

 

[hopkinwfg]

Sorry double posting....

 

[CS Murphy 'R9]

Sorry double posting....

Here is a full playlist from my YT channel that has all the info of all the changes done to the Custom shop Historics. Todd Louis did a good job covering the changes from year to year.

'59 Historic

Share your videos with friends, family, and the world

youtube.com

 

[jb_abides]

Thank you guys!! Am late on the game.... But how about the specifics like unsheathed truss rod ? (Truss rod condom) and a thinner nitro finishes? Do the carve of the R9 neck gone way thinner than those 2000s era?

Looks like these carried forward 2017 era R9 are very worth checking !!

but i have too many gibson, and heritage.... all are unique and different in character....

Here's a thread that walks through Historic Reissue changes: "Year-By-Year"

Again, search is your friend. If LPF Search doesn't yield good results, then use Google site search.

In Google bar [syntax]: site:lespaulforum.com search-term-1 search-term-2 ...

... where 'search-term-1' is replaced by something relevant to search for, like "truss rod condom"

 

[CS Murphy 'R9]

Here's a thread that walks through Historic Reissue changes: "Year-By-Year"

Again, search is your friend. If LPF Search doesn't yield good results, then use Google site search.

In Google bar [syntax]: site:lespaulforum.com search-term-1 search-term-2 ...

... where 'search-term-1' is replaced by something relevant to search for, like "truss rod condom"

That thread was a good read, tons of info. I gave the poster a easy way out so he does not have to go through 21 pages in that thread!
Ironically the guy that did the historic video's I posted a link to is in in that thread! After vetting Todd he is accurate with maybe the exception of his opinion of the TH series?

 

[jb_abides]

That thread was a good read, tons of info. I gave the poster a easy way out so he does not have to go through 21 pages in that thread!
Ironically the guy that did the historic video's I posted a link to is in in that thread! After vetting Todd he is accurate with maybe the exception of his opinion of the TH series?

@Todd Louis is a very profuse and opinionated poster here from the 2000s and owns many Historic Reissues through the changes; he's still around, mostly on Facebook, hasn't checked in since 2022 on the board.

I don't recall Todd's specific issues with the TH; Gibson falls victim to milking the incremental changes for marketing and prices changes, and also there's many argumed positions and camps for 'Already-Close-Enough', 'Never-Be-Exact' (because of Old Growth, mass availability of materials and production/safety/environment consideration), 'Why-Don't-You-Fix-XYZ-Niggles' etc. but I think the prevailing opinions on TH at the time is down to the marketing and pricing, combined with the other product line moves around HS and CS. It was overwrought and confusing, and didn't represent a clear path forward based on ;longstanding customer support fanbase sentiment. The irrationality persists, as some claim that Murphy Lab is imbued with some extra special JuJu when the differences are down to the finish formulation and the aging process, not the fundamental product specifications or parts.

So post-TH, Gibson Custom Shop course-corrected a bit although the TH/HS/CS era still confuses would-be buyers in the used market doing research. I think they veered into overwrought territory again with the CC Collector's Choice, which was a good idea but not well executed, i.e. too many ~ too frequent ~ not differentiated enough ~ not close enough in wood selection [which is an almost impossible task -- I say almost because I think there's a way to get closer using computer vision pattern matching -- but Gibson would never be disciplined enough in their business to pursue that].

Of course, Gibson would understandably have you buy new, the most accurate ever, etc. and feel good about it as is their prerogative.

Todd has some real beauties, and a lot of them, and he's made the changes he wanted on some, to get what he wants, and isn't afraid to praise or reject according to his standards, and is greatly missed around here...

 

[CS Murphy 'R9]

@Todd Louis is a very profuse and opinionated post here from the 2000s and owns many Historic Reissues through the changes; he's still around, mostly on Facebook, hasn't checked in since 2022 on the board.

I don't recall Todd's specific issues with the TH; Gibson falls victim to milking the incremental changes for marketing and prices changes, and also there's many argumed positions and camps for 'Already-Close-Enough', 'Never-Be-Exact' (because of Old Growth, mass availability of materials and production/safety/environment consideration), 'Why-Don't-You-Fix-XYZ-Niggles' etc. but I think the prevailing opinions on TH at the time is down to the marketing and pricing, combined with the other product line moves around HS and CS. It was overwrought and confusing, and didn't represent a clear path forward based on ;longstanding customer support fanbase sentiment. The irrationality persists, as some claim that Murphy Lab is imbued with some extra special JuJu when the differences are down to the finish formulation and the aging process, not the fundamental product specifications or parts.

So post-TH, Gibson Custom Shop course-corrected a bit although the TH/HS/CS era still confuses would-be buyers in the used market doing research. I think they veered into overwrought territory again with the CC Collector's Choice, which was a good idea but not well executed, i.e. too many ~ too frequent ~ not differentiated enough ~ not close enough in wood selection [which is an almost impossible task -- I say almost because I think there's a way to get closer using computer vision pattern matching -- but Gibson would never be disciplined enough in their business to pursue that].

Of course, Gibson would understandably have you buy new, the most accurate ever, etc. and feel good about it as is their prerogative.

Todd has some real beauties, and a lot of them, and he's made the changes he wanted on some, to get what he wants, and isn't afraid to praise or reject according to his standards, and is greatly missed around here...

Todd's issue with TH's is that he is adamant that they are just regular everyday historic's with a changed Pickguard and knobs and nothing else? He said it is just gibsons marketing BS.
That video of the Custom shop I posted above with Edwin wilson shows the TH line and how they are made, which is a lot more spec than just a PG and knobs changed? according to the video they also roll the fingerboard edge get hand picked woods and have a overall more hands on build? I honestly do not know what the truth of this is?

 

[jb_abides]

Todd issue with TH's is that he is adamant that they are just regular everyday historic's with a changed Pickguard and knobs and nothing else? He said it is just gibsons marketing BS.
That video of the Custom shop with Edwin wilson shows the TH line and how they are made, which is a lot more spec than just a PG and knobs changed? according to the video they also roll the fingerboard edge get hand picked woods and have a overall more hands on build? I honestly do not know what the truth of this is?

Not knowing the exact group he was addressing, I would accept Edwin's descriptions at face value.

Did not rewatch that video... so I don't know the EXACT context which Edwin (RIP) was responding to: he may be talking to those 'Hand Selected' too. 'Hand Selected' is a term that gets bandied around too loosely; YES, there were 'Hand Selected' models but not all ' R' and not always. We eventually and inevitably get into subsets of subsets of the CS's 'R'model line, with dealer-specific builds, etc. so can't generalize too broadly.

 

[hopkinwfg]

Todd's issue with TH's is that he is adamant that they are just regular everyday historic's with a changed Pickguard and knobs and nothing else? He said it is just gibsons marketing BS.
That video of the Custom shop I posted above with Edwin wilson shows the TH line and how they are made, which is a lot more spec than just a PG and knobs changed? according to the video they also roll the fingerboard edge get hand picked woods and have a overall more hands on build? I honestly do not know what the truth of this is?

I believe the TH carry over to 2017era on the construction will change the tone on the gibson RI series..... not on hareware and appearance nor murphy aging ( not mentioning the Murphy lab finish) and i prefer something more on the construction side of things..... it probably sound different acoustically and way less of a difference when playing thru an amp ....

 

[CS Murphy 'R9]

I believe the TH carry over to 2017era on the construction will change the tone on the gibson RI series..... not on hareware and appearance nor murphy aging ( not mentioning the Murphy lab finish) and i prefer something more on the construction side of things..... it probably sound different acoustically and way less of a difference when playing thru an amp ....

The best method will always be play as many as you can and pick the one you like best. Sometimes we can overthink things and be concerned with things that really have little to do with the guitars
playability and tone. Playing them will always be the best way to judge them. My 2023 Murphy R9 only took me one minute of playing it to know it was a keeper! I still love my 2016
Historic R9 but the ML was just better overall to me.

 

[CS Murphy 'R9]

Not knowing the exact group he was addressing, I would accept Edwin's descriptions at face value.

Did not rewatch that video... so I don't know the EXACT context which Edwin (RIP) was responding to: he may be talking to those 'Hand Selected' too. 'Hand Selected' is a term that gets bandied around too loosely; YES, there were 'Hand Selected' models but not all ' R' and not always. We eventually and inevitably get into subsets of subsets of the CS's 'R'model line, with dealer-specific builds, etc. so can't generalize too broadly.

I actually trust Todd's findings. he was dead on about everything else that I was able to confirm. He also brought up a very good point about the 2002-2003 stunt as a example.

 

[jb_abides]

I actually trust Todd's findings. he was dead on about everything else that I was able to confirm. He also brought up a very good point about the 2002-2003 stunt as a example.

Are you referring to: #23?

All Historics are Structurally the same from 2002/2003 through today. With the exception of hide glue for the neck, nut material trus rod condom. Nothing els has changed.​

2013 was no major change in anything.​

Gibson still to this day cant make a PAF worth anything. There so so at best.​

Any of my older Historics i still have. Are today more accurate then a 2021?. Most Historic guys on here have done the same.​

The one thing that is consistent with Gibson is there Marketing exaggerations lets call them​

I think he is mostly correct, as he caveats using 'structural' then excludes hide glue for the neck, removal of TRCondom, and nut.

That's 'structural' -- one could argue, some do, the dish carve fixes -- double-carve or whatever -- are structural. Some debated that was really happening, when or if they are continuing, any effective change, etc. I'd have to do more research to jog my memory on that front.

Won't touch the PAF debate, that's a well beaten horse, well trodden path.

All that said, plastics did change; they are not 'structural'. Those changes remained post-TH.

So, curious what else are you seeing from TL that differs from Edwin? Please provide a linked post if you can...

And, there are small changes people notice subsequent, I don't have a ready list, but grain filler, back color, hardware composition, etc. I think Mat has mentioned some changes to the pickup covers... would have to check.

 

[CS Murphy 'R9]

Are you referring to: #23?

All Historics are Structurally the same from 2002/2003 through today. With the exception of hide glue for the neck, nut material trus rod condom. Nothing els has changed.​

2013 was no major change in anything.​

Gibson still to this day cant make a PAF worth anything. There so so at best.​

Any of my older Historics i still have. Are today more accurate then a 2021?. Most Historic guys on here have done the same.​

The one thing that is consistent with Gibson is there Marketing exaggerations lets call them​

I think he is mostly correct, as he caveats using 'structural' then excludes hide glue for the neck, removal of TRCondom, and nut.

That's 'structural' -- one could argue, some do, the dish carve fixes -- double-carve or whatever -- are structural. Some debated that was really happening, when or if they are continuing, any effective change, etc. I'd have to do more research to jog my memory on that front.

Won't touch the PAF debate, that's a well beaten horse, well trodden path.

All that said, plastics did change; they are not 'structural'. Those changes remained post-TH.

So, curious what else are you seeing from TL that differs from Edwin? Please provide a linked post if you can...

And, there are small changes people notice subsequent, I don't have a ready list, but grain filler, back color, hardware composition, etc. I think Mat has mentions some changes to the pickup covers... would have to check.

Todd said on the True Historic's nothing other than the pickguard and knobs were changed from the 2014 historic spec, but according to Gibson other things were also "upgraded" or changed,

 

[CS Murphy 'R9]

Here is the exact video where Todd speaks of the TH line compared to the regular historic's.

 

[jb_abides]

Todd said on the True Historic's nothing other than the pickguard and knobs were changed from the 2014 historic spec, but according to Gibson other things were also "upgraded" or changed,

Well, as I said plastics did change. I think I mentioned the dish carve claims. Rolled binding, I forget when that happened.

So, he's correct, although I think overly focused on the changes [or lack thereof] being the root of the matter.

The issue regarding the 'True Historic' marketing push wasn't really the incremental changes associated with them, Gibson has been marketing "new and improved" type change in marketing tripe along with those incremental model changes, halt-stepping toward accuracy.... To me, that's understanding specification alterations, and marketing akin to that done across many, many product spaces.

The first kicker, and I think I alluded to what sparked TL's vocal stance, was purported differentiation from Reissues that had come before, especially the 2013- changes. So, it was a perception of being disingenuous and "lowering" the value of the Reissues that had been produced prior. 'Hey, don't SH*T on existing Reissue guitars... we've been the ones supporting you, buying your products over and over, in fact the folks giving you the information to make them better... and now you are going to F-Us over with this marketing...?!' was a prevalent sentiment.

That said -- I think what's really overlooked, and I'll stress again although I've mentioned it -- is the nomenclature changed to make way for the most consequential 'unforced error' which was the stratification of the Custom Shop/Historic Les Paul Standard product line with not just the 'True Historic' but 'Historic Select' and in particular the 'Custom Select' models and associated branding hullaballoo.

'True Historic' was just what the marketing folks picked. Debating how more 'Truer' the 'True Historic' guitars with incremental specification changes over prior years being less relevant to actual motivation than introduction of Custom Select (CS, or C-Sel) models with Reissue 'dressing' but 'structural' differences e.g. the short tenon in tandem with a price increase was seen as a bum move. With C-Sel, Gibson had to create another designation, because they were introducing an inferior model [from a historic reissue accuracy perspective, it's still a fine guitar if you aren't hung up on the tenon]. Not sure if there were wood-sort, top-choice shenanigans too, or just the tenon. Of course, Historic Select and Hand Select became more layer beyond the TH branding.

Too much noise, not enough signal. And price differentiation (increase) without perceived value for cost difference.