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Exposing the "evil doers"...

Greasy G

Greasy G

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May 6, 2013
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285
Skipped said:
A forum member who lives in the North West of the Uk has bought at least one very expensive vintage guitar from a particular ebay seller, which turned out to be not as described. He has had some assistance from knowledgeable forum members and I hope that at some point we will hear about a satisfactory outcome. A member of the other forum posted a NGD thread showing a '54 GT from the same seller. The buyer must have been stunned to see the replies pointing out some rather alarming issues.

It is a tragedy that - to date - we, the people who read these posts, have not yet thought of a way to stop a seller from reposting such guitars on ebay with the same description after (presumably) agreeing to take them back.
Due dilligence is a good thing, and is good advice. But at some point in the near future, another poor soul is going to find this forum, and then join the forum, after buying one of these guitars.
There must be an answer - and the answer seems to lie somewhere in the following area. Putting together - The knowledge of the online community.....and ebay. I don't know enough about ebay to guess what the options might be but I do know that if the seller decided to change his ID and then reposted the guitars, 20 people who are reading this thread would immediately recognize the problem guitar/guitars.
Click to expand...

You're referring to eBay crook Rockkystar, aren't you?

I exposed a number of Rockkystar's frauds on this forum in a number of posts, see for example:

BREAKING: eBay fraud rockkystar almost honest

In these posts I used some SEO tricks to make these posts appear at the top position in Google. So if you search for "Rockkystar", one of the first things - if not the first thing - you see is a post exposing Lord Keith Douglas-Dickens. This way, if someone thinks about buying from Rockkystar but checks Google first, he or she has a fair warning.

So if we name names, provide proof (important!) and have long forum discussions where a lot of people participate (Google loves activity), everyone can get a fair warning!

PS I know that the person from France who bought a '63 SG Standard with undisclosed issues and changes reached a settlement with Lord Keith.
 
C

cfh

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Jul 31, 2004
Messages
895
I've been trying to expose fraud through this site on bursts (and guitars in general) for years. Frankly, i was told to stop doing it from the "heavy hitters" here. Bottom line, as taken from a movie, "you can't handle the truth." There's a lot of down side to doing this, and frankly not much upside. It took me a while to get the message, but now i have to agree with that thinking, and in general, i keep quiet.

Generally speaking, the number of people that actually buy these expensive guitars is very small. So the fraud info is really only good for those types. And if you have a big pile of money and you're not willing to hire a guy to check out the guitar ahead, then it's your fault. That's the general thinking. That people "in the know" are the ones that "know it all". And the rest of the world doesn't have to know all the dirty details, because they're not really buying the stuff. It's just entertainment on "who's screwing whom."
 
B

Banker

Guest
I couldn't agree with you less.

Those active in guitar and amplifier fraud, as we have seen, do not restrict their activities to the rarefied 'burst market. On the contrary, they tend to also target lower absolute price but higher margin opportunities. Vested interests will always seek to maintain a veil of secrecy behind which to continue their malevolent activities. Disclosure and transparency are friends to the honest and upstanding.
 
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L

loufed52

Guest
Banker said:
I couldn't agree with you less.

Those active in guitar and amplifier fraud, as we have seen, do not restrict their activities to the rarefied 'burst market. On the contrary, they tend to also target lower absolute price but higher margin opportunities. Vested interests will always seek to maintain a veil of secrecy behind which to continue their malevolent activities. Disclosure and transparency are friends to the honest and upstanding.
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I couldn't agree with you more.
Many vintage dealers have a multi-tier disclosure ethic based on the perceived knowledge and resources of the potential buyer.

It's very easy, and profitable, to do a splashy big deal with a well known guitarist/collector.
That creates "buzz" and a semblance of legitimacy for the dealer.
That dealer may be less forthcoming with the next deal, big or small, and make some nice money.
If he gets called on it, he can make good and save his reputation.
If not, he gets over.

To me, that's the more subtle, and dangerous, part of this business for the average buyer.
It's like when you go into a car dealer and they ask you how much you want to pay each month- you'll get something, but it may not be the best deal.
 
Y

yeti

Guest
loufed52 said:
It's very easy, and profitable, to do a splashy big deal with a well known guitarist/collector.
That creates "buzz" and a semblance of legitimacy for the dealer.
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In the old days you had signed pictures of stars behind the counter of guitar stores but these days it's all over the web.

"So-and-so visited the store today and testdrove or bought a Burst"

What happens with these Youtube videos done by well known guitarists/collectors is that they end up being quasi-endorsements of the dealer.
What you see is a guy playing a guitar or visiting the store but the underlying message is that this dealer/ gear-for-hire person is trustworthy.
In many cases this is not a problem because the message is truthful and a good dealer gets great publicity. But I can think of cases where these videos lent credibility to guys who don't deserve it. The well known guitarist/collector is (for lack of a better term) "victimized" as well in these instances.
 
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T

trmckn

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Jun 25, 2011
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335
So far, in the couple of pages of this thread, we've exposed....hmmm....let me think... Some unknown person associated with a Sotherby's auction and an unnamed ebay dealer who may or may not be rockystar.

Nonetheless, this is actually all very interesting.
 
gilapagostortois

gilapagostortois

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Jan 15, 2011
Messages
732
trmckn said:
So far, in the couple of pages of this thread, we've exposed....hmmm....let me think... Some unknown person associated with a Sotherby's auction and an unnamed ebay dealer who may or may not be rockystar...
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that hasn't remotely escaped me...65 posts later (one doesn't count). but, don't worry.
 
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lpnv59

lpnv59

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Sometimes the evil doers are not the dealer but the innocent and always self righteous customer....wouldn't you agree Gilapago? For those wondering, Ganzler Inc is still very much in business of authenticating vintage instruments and 2013 was Joe's best year. In fact he went all Sherlock Holmes in a court case involving an original sparkle finish Stratocaster. I won't give details. But the legal team who hired him won the case.

And Fretted Americana was not involved in the sale of Gladys.
 
lpnv59

lpnv59

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gilapagostortois said:
it can CERTAINLY be the customer, but it seems it's usually the dealer. P.S. (nice shirt:))
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Well in this thread it does. But I think it goes both ways. Customers playing dumber than they really are. Its just like buying a car. How many go to trade in a car thats never been in an accident. We're all bozos on this bus.:##
 
landminelenny

landminelenny

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May 11, 2010
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lpnv59 said:
Sometimes the evil doers are not the dealer but the innocent and always self righteous customer....wouldn't you agree Gilapago? For those wondering, Ganzler Inc is still very much in business of authenticating vintage instruments and 2013 was Joe's best year. In fact he went all Sherlock Holmes in a court case involving an original sparkle finish Stratocaster. I won't give details. But the legal team who hired him won the case.

And Fretted Americana was not involved in the sale of Gladys.
Click to expand...

Those sparkle finishes are a thing of their own. They weren't painted in house at Fender and to the novice you'd pass them as a refinish.
 
L

loufed52

Guest
lpnv59 said:
Well in this thread it does. But I think it goes both ways. Customers playing dumber than they really are. Its just like buying a car. How many go to trade in a car thats never been in an accident. We're all bozos on this bus.:##
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There's plenty of asshole customers, that's for sure.
But I fail to see the problem with a customer not immediately revealing their knowledge level.
It's a pretty good way to determine if the seller will take advantage of the ignorant.
I doubt that you're intimating that this is okay.
 
sillytele

sillytele

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593
I think that all of the shenanigans come home to roost when our guitars are passed on to family members when we pass away. Our children may not be interested in the guitar, but the money they can bring.
At this time the value of the instrument will come into play. I think technology exists that not only will allow for truthful appraisal but also registry of any forinsic, specific information of said guitar. The guitar can then have a microchip inserted that will store this information and be a heriditary touchstone for future owners. Kind of like a black light on steroids.
If it can be done with dogs, it can be done with guitars.
 
ChevChelios

ChevChelios

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With the right tools, you can even determine the exact age of the glue, lacquer, etc. Problem is that these tools are very expensive, but almost every bigger university has them ...
 
Rev.WillieVK

Rev.WillieVK

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Dr.ChevChelios said:
With the right tools, you can even determine the exact age of the glue, lacquer, etc. Problem is that these tools are very expensive, but almost every bigger university has them ...
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The problem is that a lot of those tools are 1) invasive, 2) destructive, and 3) expensive.

Ask a Burst owner to carve off a sliver of mahogany or rosewood from his Burst for testing and see what reaction you get! :hee
 
Triburst

Triburst

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I've lurked around here reading about these vintage guitars and the secret "tells," many of which remain closely guarded secrets among what is basically a guild of experts. Though I'm very much for "outing" the bad players in this business, I'm fine with these secrets remaining secrets, even though it's doubtful I would ever be in the circle to get to learn them.

Some may disagree, but I continue to believe that this secrecy is a very good thing, not because it gives job security to those few experts, but because it simply raises the bar (usually, to unattainable highs) for most guitar forgers. (I'm with TW59 -- it's not a "replica" if it says "Gibson," it's a forgery).

So, if one of these experts finds the radius of the curvature of the thingamajig on the whatchmacallit is supposed to be "X," and it's "Y," you're busted. Good! And please identify the players involved. :hank
 
MapleFlame

MapleFlame

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After that Catalogue Burst fiasco I was involved in, I found out how many guys help cover each others ass. I have had the best luck buying from original owners through several ways.
 
JJ Blair

JJ Blair

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Jan 9, 2011
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lpnv59 said:
Sometimes the evil doers are not the dealer but the innocent and always self righteous customer....wouldn't you agree Gilapago? For those wondering, Ganzler Inc is still very much in business of authenticating vintage instruments and 2013 was Joe's best year. In fact he went all Sherlock Holmes in a court case involving an original sparkle finish Stratocaster. I won't give details. But the legal team who hired him won the case.

And Fretted Americana was not involved in the sale of Gladys.
Click to expand...

This was not the blue sparkle strat, was it, and that knuckle head in the northeast who sued the seller he bought it from?
 
hoss

hoss

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6,748
Cody said:
What happened?
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If I remember correctly: It was for sale a couple of years ago, then the forums discovered that it is the Burst from the old black and white Gibson catalog and the seller backed out of a done deal and increased the price.
 
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