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Koss and PG outputs

Jon Brook

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Jan 14, 2016
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177
Anyone got the pup outputs of the original Koss ( ex-ramm) and PG/ Greeny to hand please?


Jon
 

sws1

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Dec 4, 2001
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2,846
Koss (from the other thread): neck 8.52 bridge 7.43
 

springhead

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Feb 12, 2016
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The DC resistance of the coil(s) isn't really the pickups 'output'. Magnetic field strength is more important but that's harder to measure so is seldom quoted. So many factors in why those two guitars sound different - the pickups, including DC resistanace, magnet type, field strength etc. is only a small part of it.
 

Tom Wittrock

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Aug 2, 2001
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The DC resistance of the coil(s) isn't really the pickups 'output'. Magnetic field strength is more important but that's harder to measure so is seldom quoted. So many factors in why those two guitars sound different - the pickups, including DC resistanace, magnet type, field strength etc. is only a small part of it.

No matter how often this is pointed out, most people still want the resistance readings to be "output".

Maybe somebody could figure a way to actually measure output, once and for all.
 

EpiLP1985

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Aug 11, 2017
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No matter how often this is pointed out, most people still want the resistance readings to be "output".

Maybe somebody could figure a way to actually measure output, once and for all.

I think the problem stems from people wanting a single value to hang their hats on for output. In reality you are talking about a range of output voltages dependent on how strong the source (your picking hand) is.

It wouldn’t be very difficult to setup an approximation of the pickup and source using an electric circuit and then measure output based on a range of fixed inputs fed into the circuit. You could also hook up test equipment to the guitar itself and get voltage and current values.

Ultimately you'd want to know the current induced by picking and the subsequent voltage generated. The problem is that all you know is the fixed DC resistance of the coils. Current induced in the pickup will depend on the force of the input (the picking strength) and the magnetic field strength. If you knew the magnetic field strength and could feed a circuit with a range of current values that represent soft to hard picking, you could get a useful range of output voltages to use as a measure of pickup output.

The problem of course would be getting people to understand what these new metrics meant!
 
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Pellman73

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Aug 9, 2016
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No matter how often this is pointed out, most people still want the resistance readings to be "output".

Maybe somebody could figure a way to actually measure output, once and for all.


or yea hey do these pickups put out or what?
 

sws1

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Dec 4, 2001
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No matter how often this is pointed out, most people still want the resistance readings to be "output".

Maybe somebody could figure a way to actually measure output, once and for all.

Perhaps a simple RMS metering of the signal played into a DAW or recorder.
 

duaneflowers

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Aug 13, 2013
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2,522
Perhaps a simple RMS metering of the signal played into a DAW or recorder.

Or perhaps into an oscilloscope to generate a sonic fingerprint at various decibels the way they do with speakers...
 

PaulD

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Jun 25, 2007
Messages
673
It is very simple to measure the actual output of a pickup using either a RMS voltmeter or an oscilloscope, the problem is it all depends on how hard you pluck the string, so in order for it to give meaningful results that can be used to compare pickups you need to have the exact same string vibrating at exactly the same amplitude and at exactly the same distance from the pickup - that's unfortunately not so simple to do!
 
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EpiLP1985

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It is very simple to measure the actual output of a pickup using either a RMS voltmeter or an oscilloscope, the problem is all depends on how hard you pluck the string so in order for it to give meaningful results that can be used to compare pickups you need to have the exact same string vibrating at exactly the same amplitude and at exactly the same distance from the pickup - that's unfortunately not so simple to do!

Right.

People would have to accept a range of output values. Trying to hammer down what picking "soft" or "hard" is for each individual is impossible. Every player will have a different "source".

It's no secret then why DC resistance caught on as a measure of pickups output. It's static!
 

thin sissy

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Jan 2, 2006
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It is very simple to measure the actual output of a pickup using either a RMS voltmeter or an oscilloscope, the problem is all depends on how hard you pluck the string so in order for it to give meaningful results that can be used to compare pickups you need to have the exact same string vibrating at exactly the same amplitude and at exactly the same distance from the pickup - that's unfortunately not so simple to do!
Yup, I've hade the same thought.

I don't think it matters that much, all I know is some pickups seem stronger than others which should be similar. BUT, as a thought experiment, what are the ways of getting a reasonable meassurment?

My first thought was to decide on a "standard" pickup height for every guitar you try, then at least make sure they all have new strings. And then... strum each guitar 100 times, recording the RMS current curve from start to finish. Then plot this against the time ("0" is when the current starts rising). With a 100 curves for each pickup, a fitted curve could possibly give an indication for each guitar.

Again, I'm not saying this is worth doing. It would take a long time and really not say too much, I know I would have difficulty relating to the results :laugh2: .
 

thin sissy

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A plot against the different frequencies might be a more interesting measurment? It would give a bit more insight of the "tone of the pickup + guitar" :hmm .

On the other hand, it's probably easier to just listen with ones ears instead. Interesting subject though!
 
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PaulD

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None of these "simple solutions" sound simple. :wah

:) I think the simple answer is that it isn't simple - I guess that's why we measure dc resistance! Measuring RMS voltage is no more complicated than measuring resistance, you just connect up the meter in the same way, pluck the strings and read the output but as discussed the reading will depend on how hard the strings are plucked plus a bunch of other variables so it is pretty meaningless.
 

Shakey

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Dec 10, 2016
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103
:) I think the simple answer is that it isn't simple - I guess that's why we measure dc resistance! Measuring RMS voltage is no more complicated than measuring resistance, you just connect up the meter in the same way, pluck the strings and read the output but as discussed the reading will depend on how hard the strings are plucked plus a bunch of other variables so it is pretty meaningless.


There are no answers, just better questions.
 

DrRobert

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Jun 12, 2003
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6,050
None of these "simple solutions" sound simple. :wah

It gets worse! You not only have to control for "picking strength", but also for pickup height, pickup pole piece adjustment, string material and gauge, and the output across the frequency band (because we all know that PAFs have wildly different EQ profiles for the same input). You COULD build an experimental rig for this:
1. Stimulate the string with a spinning wheel at a given pressure, or by using an alternating magnetic field. Input several levels to control for compression at the pickup
2. Match string brand/gauge
3. Match pickup height (and also the height of the other pickup to control for damping, best to have it as low as possible)
4. Match pole piece adjustment
5. Output various pitches to an RMS meter and create a waterfall plot of input strength and frequency vs output volume

What you'd end up with would a complex picture, not truly suitable for a quick comparison AND not applicable to another application (different wood, strings, player, amp etc would change the harmonic response).

And I can tell you why this would be a completely useless practice, even once. I've sat and listened while LPNV59 played my burst into my amp. He sounded COMPLETELY different than I do playing the same guitar. I can't make that guitar thru that amp sound like he can-just can't. So what good would it do me to know that the pickups in another guitar were like or unlike those pickups? The results still wouldn't sound like my bogey!
 

janalex

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Jan 6, 2003
Messages
780
I think the presumption as that all other things being equal, including magnet type and strength, wire, construction, age, a higher DC resistance translates to greater number of winds resulting in increased low end and output. The problem is that the magnet age and type is a huge variable affecting output and without knowing it little can be inferred from the DC resistance.
 

thin sissy

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Jan 2, 2006
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None of these "simple solutions" sound simple. :wah
I don't know if you quoting "simple solutions" refers to my posts? I was trying to make it clear that there's probably no point in doing it (not simple), but I was just having a bit of fun with a thought.
 
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