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Strange Bird

sangandongo

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Mar 27, 2009
Messages
140
I picked this up for $1,500. It's odd for a few reasons, the biggest of which are the first fret inlay and the factory rosewood binding. The neck never had binding and it appears to have the original frets.

Serial number is in the 500,000s.

I'd love to get feedback, thoughts, etc. (I posted this over in the Norlin section of MLP, but I thought I'd toss it at some fresh eyes.)

Thanks,
j.k


Click for link to large sized images at Picasa Web Albums - sangandongo - Les Paul Gold Top


128.jpg


107.jpg


the strange inlay:
112.jpg


130.jpg


124.jpg


127.jpg


The rosewood binding:
119.jpg


Clarostat pots? Sprague caps?
132.jpg
 

sangandongo

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Mar 27, 2009
Messages
140
Ok. Wouldn't the routing along the neck edge need to have been filled by something? There's nothing filled, nothing to fill: the fretboard runs all the way to the edge.
 

27sauce

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Jul 9, 2007
Messages
4,415
How do you know its factory? It looks refinished to me, so theres no telling what is original or not.
 

sangandongo

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Mar 27, 2009
Messages
140
I -don't- really know it's factory. The top is rather faded though. There's checking in the gold. It's possible that it's been refinished, but I haven't blacklighted it yet.

The thing that makes me think the binding is not an alteration is that there appears to be no ledge / routing evidence on the neck at all. The rosewood binding on the body blends right into the neck edge. Towards the third fret on the top side, the nitro/clear coat has been worn through and you can see clearly that the board has no edge.

It's possible that the board was replaced, but man, if that was done, it was executed with extreme skill.
 

TommyTouch

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Joined
Feb 15, 2006
Messages
1,050
Stiff neck and a brass nut. Congratulations on your "Strange Bird" Les Paul. Hard to tell from the pics, the frets look big with little or no wear, possible re-fret. Have fun playing that thang.
 

sangandongo

Active member
Joined
Mar 27, 2009
Messages
140
This may be hard to see because I'm using my phone to photograph this, but if you look closely you can see fret-end nubs on the rosewood binding on the neck. The neck rosewood binding stops between the 7th and 6th fret. It's sliced in at an angle and is very skillfully concealed. (I only just found it as I was typing this.)

The fret-end nubs stop at 10.

Nubs:
IMG_20100728_134029.jpg


Binding to Fretboard blend. it's difficult to make out with this phone. It starts with the first 45 degree grain. from there to the nut is fret board edge rather than wooden binding.:
IMG_20100728_142222.jpg
 

sangandongo

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Mar 27, 2009
Messages
140
I asked the owner if he knew what the "B" stood for, how long owned the guitar. I told him that the pot codes were Clarostats.
Hi John, All the old goldtop Les Pauls had that B in a circle in the control cavity until 72. Its a code for 2 piece maple top. Had the guitar awhile now, I got it from the owner who had it since 73. You have no worries you got an absolute home run on that guitar. I am so glad it kicks through your amp! Enjoy it there aren't that many vintage les Pauls around anymore and none for 1500.00 anywhere. Thanks, Tracy

I told him that I found a '74 on ebay with the "B" in it and that wasn't exactly right. Also, last night, after I sent the email, I figured out that it was a three piece top, not a two piece. I don't think I've ever seen a 2 piece Norlin Les Paul. I mentioned to him what we've concluded (both here on MLP and on LPF) and his response was this:

Hi John, I just wanted to tell you he is wrong Gibson had runs of numbers all over the place but it dosen't even matter if it does go to 74 because the value from 70 to 74 is the same. I stated in my add I dont want or need vintage lessons, I know as much as any dealer I belive and no one can tell me different that its not a refin top and I know the pots are original.

I told him "thanks, take care."

Honestly, I don't care. I just wanted a bit more information from him to fill in a gap here or there. He believes the shit is original: fine. I don't. one isn't more valid than the other, but it's like religion to me: I can prove the non-existence of one with the use of science and mathematics. Him believing really hard that this is something other than what it is despite the evidence stacked against it won't make it true.
 

zombiwoof

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Feb 22, 2003
Messages
3,565
I don't see the "rosewood binding" you're talking about, all I can see in the picture is the edge of the maple cap.

Also can't see the "nubs" in the pic (I think you mean "nibs", but whatever).

Someone did a bad (crooked) job of installing those Grovers, too!

Could have been a custom guitar made for some artist, hence the "logo" inlay.
Definitely interesting.

Al
 

sangandongo

Active member
Joined
Mar 27, 2009
Messages
140
I don't see the "rosewood binding" you're talking about, all I can see in the picture is the edge of the maple cap.

Also can't see the "nubs" in the pic (I think you mean "nibs", but whatever).

Someone did a bad (crooked) job of installing those Grovers, too!

Could have been a custom guitar made for some artist, hence the "logo" inlay.
Definitely interesting.

Al

Well... I really have no response for you here that you're likely to listen to. I don't think arguing with you will produce a different response. Perhaps high resolution photos would, but again, my point wasn't to prove to anyone what it already had, it was to see if anyone else had seen something like it and share an oddity.
 

zombiwoof

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Feb 22, 2003
Messages
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Well... I really have no response for you here that you're likely to listen to. I don't think arguing with you will produce a different response. Perhaps high resolution photos would, but again, my point wasn't to prove to anyone what it already had, it was to see if anyone else had seen something like it and share an oddity.

What argument?. I was just pointing out that I can't see what you're talking about in those pictures, they are too fuzzy to see detail. I wasn't being argumentative at all. And there is no argument that the tuners have been installed incorrectly, one of them is way crooked (that was not factory, for sure). Why so sensitive, I said it is an interesting guitar?.

Al
 

Stevedenver

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Jul 17, 2001
Messages
2,565
the rosewood is the darker wood with orange and black stripes-it is in fact covering the maple cap in the cutaway section

-in fact in the cutaway pic above you cannot see maple at all-if you did it should be very light-the reddish wood is the stained pancake bod mahogany-the thin stripe betwen the body pieces may be maple-i cant remember if gibson used maple or some other wood- for the thin sandwich -holly i think now

could someone tell me what the 1st fret inlay represents? i see an Lp-ish guitar, with 3 knobs with a explorer like lower bout protrusion-and i know this isnt right-what is it?
 
Last edited:

sangandongo

Active member
Joined
Mar 27, 2009
Messages
140
For Al / ZombieWoof:

As for the grovers, sorry you see it that way. It's likely a camera angle issue. My '78 Standard looks the same when I put grovers into the bottom screw hole of the Klusons. The tuners on my '80 Deluxe are also angled this way.



As for the top, ever seen a maple cap with grain and coloration like this?
119.jpg


or this:
122.jpg


or this?:
123.jpg


And here are the nibs:
IMG_20100728_134029.jpg
 

Stevedenver

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Joined
Jul 17, 2001
Messages
2,565
Ok. Wouldn't the routing along the neck edge need to have been filled by something? There's nothing filled, nothing to fill: the fretboard runs all the way to the edge.

well im guessing that the binding somehow came unglued-if you will-
unlikely it was both the neck and body tho at the same time

assuming that being the case-somehting came unglued-

then perhaps someone decided the two should match -and both body and neck binding were peeled off

there is a ledge for the binding-and strips of rosewood could easily be fitted-once the routed ledge was cleaned of old glue

and RW would take glue and adhere better than plastic binding-

once fitted and glued it is nothing to scrape them perfectly flush

im guessing that the top was reshot -thus no visisble binding from dead on straight

gold looks similar to that used by gibson in the early 70s-and could be original
but then i dont understand why the binding would be visisble from straight on

btw -the binding imho is brazillian-the cutaway portion sure looks like it to my eye
 

sangandongo

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Joined
Mar 27, 2009
Messages
140
could someone tell me what the 1st fret inlay represents? i see an Lp-ish guitar, with 3 knobs with a explorer like lower bout protrusion-and i know this isnt right-what is it?

Steve,

I saw in the inlay something close to what you did too. I went as far as to take the image and put it into Photoshop so I could submit the shape to "similar image" search engines. I got nothing.

logo.jpg


logo2.jpg
 

sangandongo

Active member
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Mar 27, 2009
Messages
140
well im guessing that the binding somehow came unglued-if you will-
unlikely it was both the neck and body tho at the same time

assuming that being the case-somehting came unglued-

then perhaps someone decided the two should match -and both body and neck binding were peeled off

there is a ledge for the binding-and strips of rosewood could easily be fitted-once the routed ledge was cleaned of old glue

and RW would take glue and adhere better than plastic binding-

once fitted and glued it is nothing to scrape them perfectly flush

im guessing that the top was reshot -thus no visisble binding from dead on straight

gold looks similar to that used by gibson in the early 70s-and could be original
but then i dont understand why the binding would be visisble from straight on

btw -the binding imho is brazillian-the cutaway portion sure looks like it to my eye

Steve,

I thought the same thing at first about the binding until I found the seam where they blend the binding in with the fretboard. The binding gets progressively thinner along the top side until about half way between the 6th and 7th fret. Somebody very masterfully cut the rosewood to match one of the grains so that the seam lined up and was nearly invisible. You can see the binding separation all the way up to this point if you are looking straight on from the front.

Above that, it is all fretboard, no binding at all. On the cut-away side of the board, the binding stops between 11 and ten, where again, they matched the edge with a grain.

As for the species, I agree: both the fretboard and the binding are Brasilian. In fact, I got rather excited about that and proclaimed it loudly when I first saw the guitar in person.
 

j45

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Jun 14, 2002
Messages
9,081
It's a cool guitar with some unique personalized features and if it plays good and sounds good, that's all that really matters. I would put heavy money (if I was a gambler) on a definite refin with some old after-the-fact luthier custom work. The masking marks at the fingerboard, control cavity, and especially the pickup rout in the larger photos are very "non-Gibson" of any era regardless of special order or not.
 

sangandongo

Active member
Joined
Mar 27, 2009
Messages
140
It's a cool guitar with some unique personalized features and if it plays good and sounds good, that's all that really matters. I would put heavy money (if I was a gambler) on a definite refin with some old after-the-fact luthier custom work. The masking marks at the fingerboard, control cavity, and especially the pickup rout in the larger photos are very "non-Gibson" of any era regardless of special order or not.

Agreed. In fact, I found a divot on the top just left of the bridge pickup's upper left corner a hole that might be an old screw point for the early 70's "goof rings" that were so common on these.
 
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