• Guys, we've spent considerable money converting the Les Paul Forum to this new XenForo platform, and we have ongoing monthly operating expenses. THE "DONATIONS" TAB IS NOW WORKING, AND WE WOULD APPRECIATE ANY DONATIONS YOU CAN MAKE TO KEEP THE LES PAUL FORUM GOING! Thank you!

Year-by-Year History of the Historic Les Paul Collection

55Custom

New member
Joined
Sep 5, 2003
Messages
6,251
You know that is not true, as you and I have debated this before,
yet you continue to spout your empirical knowledge as fact.
Post something from a reputable source, show some documentation,
as I have done so many times in the past, or label your post as opinion.
You continue to mislead and confuse this, as well as many other issues.
Your replies to my posts continue to be completely wrong.

Here is the info on the STinger eastern maple tops.
www.stingerguitars.com/story6.htm

In addition, read what the stinger owners were saying in 2003 about their guitars and the maple top discussions of that time.

Regarding the other allegations of Eastern maple read post #116 which I quoted below.
His reseach yielded the same results as mine did from a couple of years ago

For those who are interested, I phoned Gibson today (waste of time as usual) they said that they have no records and cannot verify if Eastern or Western maple was used at 'ANY' time.....just that they have used both throughout.
!!
The Stingers had *confirmed* Eastern maple. Hit or miss with the others.
 

delawaregold

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 27, 2005
Messages
1,814
All that says is that Only Eastern Maple was used on the Stinger Series
guitars, it makes no mention of the rest of the 2003 Historics either way.

Gibson did use both Eastern and Western Maple for the Historic guitars
since 1994, but since 2003 forward, Western Maple was only used by
special order request, primarily for Quilt tops.


Give people the whole story, and not just what you want them to hear!


EasterMaple3.jpg
 

55Custom

New member
Joined
Sep 5, 2003
Messages
6,251
I am aware of Carpenter's post, however, Gibson does not confirm it. Repeatedly, they refuse to confirm it. That's the rest of the whole story that you left out.

Whenever, contradictory information comes from Gibson, it renders that particular issue as *inconclusive*.

Another example, would be the Brazilian Historics made after May 31, 2003.
Do they exist? Yes, according to some, No according to others - and reportedly both answers come from personnel at Gibson.
 

delawaregold

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 27, 2005
Messages
1,814
I am aware of Carpenter's post, however, Gibson does not confirm it. Repeatedly, they refuse to confirm it. That's the rest of the whole story that you left out.

Whenever, contradictory information comes from Gibson, it renders that particular issue as *inconclusive*.

Nothing contradictory or inconclusive in what Gibson says:

For those who are interested, I phoned Gibson today (waste of time as usual) they said that they have no records and cannot verify if Eastern or Western maple was used at 'ANY' time.....just that they have used both throughout.

They have no records, it could have been used at any time,
(anytime someone special ordered it)
and it was used throughout. (to make Quilt Tops)
I don’t see any contradiction to what Dave said , AT ALL.
Just the usual Gibson Spin.
 

kink56

Les Paul Froum Member
Joined
Dec 20, 2004
Messages
7,672
The Bluebook quote is wrong if only for the fact this serialzation did not start until mid 1993 with the introduction of the Historic Reissues (not Historic collection which started in 1991) Now I am sure they used this serial number method in 1992 with the prototypes. But I have owned 1993 preHistoric Les Paul RIs (and Mike Slub has some in his various articles too) That started with a 3.
 

el84ster

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 10, 2001
Messages
1,420
Add to the list that the '01s came with ceramic disc caps. At least my R8 did. Also butterscotch finish for the R8s.
 

kink56

Les Paul Froum Member
Joined
Dec 20, 2004
Messages
7,672
How do we account for 740 GT R4s? A Model that was not even in the catalog until 1997.. are we saying these are part of the generic Customshop sequence?
 

55Custom

New member
Joined
Sep 5, 2003
Messages
6,251
:



They have no records, it could have been used at any time,

and it was used throughout.
.
They have NO records confirming the claim about Eastern maple in Carpenter's post. To say that they only use Eastern maple except for special orders is unconfirmed. Unsubstantiated. That could mean they are using Western Maple on any number of Historics. Hundreds or thousands. We don't have confirmation on those numbers.
 

delawaregold

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 27, 2005
Messages
1,814
They have NO records confirming the claim about Eastern maple in Carpenter's post. To say that they only use Eastern maple except for special orders is unconfirmed. Unsubstantiated. That could mean they are using Western Maple on any number of Historics. Hundreds or thousands. We don't have confirmation on those numbers.

One can use that argument both ways
(and I will)
If they have no records, they can't confirm it,
and they can't deny it, now can they?
I have always found Dave to be honest and forthright.
Can you say the same about Gibson?
 

delawaregold

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 27, 2005
Messages
1,814
The Bluebook quote is wrong if only for the fact this serialzation did not start until mid 1993 with the introduction of the Historic Reissues (not Historic collection which started in 1991) Now I am sure they used this serial number method in 1992 with the prototypes. But I have owned 1993 preHistoric Les Paul RIs (and Mike Slub has some in his various articles too) That started with a 3.

This is just my opinion from reading some of the accompanying text.
They was some things going on with the Custom Shop other than the
Historic Program. The team working on the Historic Program were
using that numbering system. I don’t think it was meant to imply that
everything coming out of the CS was using that system.
 

55Custom

New member
Joined
Sep 5, 2003
Messages
6,251

If they have no records, they can't confirm it,
and they can't deny it, now can they?
?

That's what renders the issue *inconclusive*. Dave's claim is just a claim, it is not confirmed. It is heresay. It is unsubstantiated by Gibson. That's not Dave's fault. Gibson has the final say, not a dealer.


I have always found Dave to be honest and forthright.
Can you say the same about Gibson?
Dave's cool, Gibson isn't. That's the problem. Gibson gives contradictory information - they are the source of discrepancies in a lot of cases..
 

delawaregold

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 27, 2005
Messages
1,814
How do we account for 740 GT R4s? A Model that was not even in the catalog until 1997.. are we saying these are part of the generic Customshop sequence?

They would have been in the sequence of the year they were made.

4 YNNN

4 = Model

Y = Year of manufacture
N =
N =
N = Number of production in that years Historic Line.
 

kink56

Les Paul Froum Member
Joined
Dec 20, 2004
Messages
7,672
This is just my opinion from reading some of the accompanying text.
They was some things going on with the Custom Shop other than the
Historic Program. The team working on the Historic Program were
using that numbering system. I don’t think it was meant to imply that
everything coming out of the CS was using that system.

I just think he got his year off by one. I have YET to see a Les Paul Reissue use the m Yxxx format (outside prototypes) until the Historic Long Tenoned Les Paul Reissues of mid 1993. Now, just because I have not seen or heard of one, does not mean it is not possible.


Unfortunately I dumped the photos, but I HAVE seen Historic Black Beauty Customs in 94 and 95 that had a 4 and a 5 as the first digit respectively. Which flies in the face of what is to be expected (a 7) The 1994 had a Historic Collection Decal, like those seen on late 93/early 94 R7 GTs and R9 Flametops.


What REALLY pisses me off, is why can't Gibson have the definative, quick and accurate answers to ALL and ANY of these questions? ESPECIALLY anything that has gone on since 1987?
 

kink56

Les Paul Froum Member
Joined
Dec 20, 2004
Messages
7,672
They would have been in the sequence of the year they were made.

4 YNNN

4 = Model

Y = Year of manufacture
N =
N =
N = Number of production in that years Historic Line.

Yes, but there is also evidence that R7s R8s and R9s in 1994 have their OWN sequence (just like now) and you could have a 7 4025, a 8 4025 and a 9 4025. So why would they MIX the R4 into another models sequence? (which they must have, because I doubt if they made more than a few dozen R4s each year before 1997)
 

kink56

Les Paul Froum Member
Joined
Dec 20, 2004
Messages
7,672
^^ '00 and '01 were big production years. I had an '01 Murphy R7 with
711XXX serial number.

On the early '90's historics like that '95, Gibson said at the time, that there were some historics issued where the last 3 digits were "custom shop" numbers, and not typical Historic sequential numbers. They said those numbers were used for special orders. For instance, "784" was an R4, but 785 could have been a completely different custom shop model and not even a Les Paul. This format was still active on a small number of historics through at least 1996. By 1998 they were using "CSxxxx" to designate special orders, but not even that was consistent. I owned examples of each type of such numbers back inthe '90's and made inquiries at that time.

If this is true, it solves the mystery. 4 5740 does NOT mean the 740th R4 of 1995. Just the 740th Customshop Guitar that is NOT part of the regular SN sequence for R9s R7s R8s etc.

It makes sense (to the evidence we have) that ALL along, since mid 1993, the R7s R9s R0s etc have there OWN SEPARATE sequence, and special orders like a R4 or whatever run in a larger group.


There were aproximently 2500 R9s in 1999, over 2000 in the year 2000, 800 in 2001 and 300 in 2002. Somewhere around 400 in 94 and in 95-98 500-600 a year. Now they make well over 1500-2000 a year since 2003.
 

55Custom

New member
Joined
Sep 5, 2003
Messages
6,251
There were aproximently 2500 R9s in 1999, over 2000 in the year 2000, 800 in 2001 and 300 in 2002. .
We need to revisit the situation in those years. 902006 was the highest serial # I came across for '00, so yes a big year.
Then in 2001 Gibson's website said there would only be 500 R9's made in 2001. I had 9 1882 from the fall of '01. Some people here said (years ago) that a certain block within the sequence went to Japan, and that they had their own set of 500 R9's that year. Doesn't change totals much, but it explains why there can be big gaps in numbers based on only what we see here in the U.S.
 

delawaregold

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 27, 2005
Messages
1,814
Dave's cool, Gibson isn't. That's the problem. Gibson gives contradictory information - they are the source of discrepancies in a lot of cases..

CertContent001a.jpg


CertContent002b.jpg


This article is from April 2005.
Do you really believe that Gibson doesn't have the records?
 

55Custom

New member
Joined
Sep 5, 2003
Messages
6,251
This article is from April 2005.
Do you really believe that Gibson doesn't have the records?
I know about the article about Smartwoods.
But if Gibson's official stance is that they don't have the records, and/or will not confirm which tops are Western maple and which are Eastern maple, then the issue officially remains inconclusive - exact species of maple used not confirmed by Gibson publicly. Anyway, it has been and remains, a dead issue.
 
Last edited:

lendude

New member
Joined
Nov 2, 2006
Messages
64
For what it's worth re: the 1994's and the point below:

'"Historic collection" decal still on the back of the headstock.'

I have a November 1994 R6 which does not have the decal - unlike my '93 R7 which does. It is in original condition.

Perhaps the decal was discontinued at some time during that year?
 

codyfarmer

New member
Joined
Dec 12, 2007
Messages
522
What a great database of information, I've considered finding one and it's good to have this as a reference point.
 
Top