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Exposing the "evil doers"...

jimmi

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 8, 2012
Messages
2,077
No one deserves to get taken on a 1985 Lace Sensor equipped Stratocaster let alone a burst. Regardless of wealth, career, social status or otherwise. We are all enthusiast a started in our childhood wanting to play and collect guitars. I know the celebrity in question and he has been nothing but super kind and generous with both myself and many other up and coming musicians. He is a much deeper musician than the public persona may suggest. But, It is this exact thing ( the fakes and forgeries and the ones that never seem to go to jail. ie: check the one less than satisfied customer in the Ebay section of this forum and look no further) gentleman that threatens to derail the train in the upcoming years. If you can't trust anyone or any instrument that you buy or sell, we should all get ready to take substantial write down on what we as collectors are holding. Its not about the money for some nor is it all about money for others. Its about maintaining a healthy state of the union. If I sold my fans a combination of fake and real tickets to shows how long would it last? Exposing the evil doers is one thing but the most baffling part is that people still do business with them and they are allowed to do business. Buyer beware. Wow.

Joe B

Absolutely! This is what I have been saying for a while. If none of us do business with these douche bags then we can sort through their stuff at the courts auction. Once they have been proven crooks, they should be completely shunned. We should by nothing from these people, not strings, picks nothing. They should be plastered on message boards like this one. They should be not invited as venders to the major guitar shows etc. that would impact their business I would think.

I suppose an issue is what do you do about those who are honest but make an honest mistake or area fooled themselves which will happen from time to time.....iMO it can be hard to tell but the honest dealer will immediately offer to refund the complete sale or a portion of it if a mistake is demonstrated. That is being a professional and what would be expected in any other business. Denial, deflection, putting the blame of this employee etc without doing that is a huge tell. Confidence comes from knowing that the person you are dealing with is honest and that they will stand behind their product.

I agreethat part of the problem is that there has not been real consequences. Look at MG. they are known to have a shop that was dedicated to producing forgeries....not just passing them on, and they are still in business. What other area of legal work could you be that patently dishonest, have it exposed and successfully prosecuted and stay business? If nothing happens but some mud slinging then why not do it? If legal means don't do it, we as a community have to police ourselves by outing and ostracizing those who are purposely ripping be people off....otherwise as you say, more and more will decide it just isn't worth the risk and we will all lose money and the fun that comes with playing, trading and talking about these instruments. (Steps down off soapbox).
 
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jimmi

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 8, 2012
Messages
2,077
I do, I consider Tom a friend and I have other personal friends on the LPF.
But right now the negative stories are overwhelming.

I think the lesson is to be careful and give the business to those who are known to be honest like Tom and Eric (I could add Lou and George...and Kim for that mater to that list) and reward the good behavior. Let them and others as the experts sort through the garbage and find the legit pieces and buy from them.

Maybe you are right and we need a thread with a more positive bend...."the honest/good guys" as a list of those to trust along with a list of whom to avoid.
 

Groover

Active member
Joined
Dec 2, 2005
Messages
614
It was eventually bought for £6000 by Bob Murdoch of RKM Supplies from Sheffield

Looks an interesting business!
 

landminelenny

Les Paul Froum Member
Joined
May 11, 2010
Messages
3,204
I do, I consider Tom a friend and I have other personal friends on the LPF.
But right now the negative stories are overwhelming.

If you focus on the negative then you will be overwhelmed. I refuse to let a select few ruin my enjoyment and appreciation of vintage guitars. There are far too many good people and great instruments that in reality reflect the majority.

I'm not saying you shouldn't tread carefully but to be paranoid isn't healthy.
 

2002standardmat

Active member
Joined
Oct 19, 2002
Messages
1,152
Why? Don't you trust anyone? Not even Tom Wittrock or Eric Ernest? This is getting ridiculous. There are more good guys than bad guys.

I like vintage guitars. I'm not gonna stop enjoying them because of a few dishonest people. The world is full of them but it's also full of honest and trustworthy knowledgable people who value their name over dishonest gain. If I couldn't tell the difference between a fake and a genuine guitar then I'd have quit the business 27 years ago when I was offered a burst with a killer flame top for £1200 which turned out to be a fake which in the end cost someone their job and their reputation. Tony Rawlinson who used to manage the Rhythm House in Stockport and later managed A1 Music in Stockport owned that guitar. It was eventually bought for £6000 by Bob Murdoch of RKM Supplies from Sheffield. Murdoch sold a fake to Maverick in 2006 but I'm not sure it was the same guitar. Tony was last spotted selling mobile phone covers on Ashton Market.

I remember seeing that guitar in A1's window one Saturday morning in '88 or '89 when Tony brought it in and hung it up with the price tag on it.

His reasonning at the time was 'if Rhythm House can have nice expensive guitars for sale, so can we'.
 

landminelenny

Les Paul Froum Member
Joined
May 11, 2010
Messages
3,204
I remember seeing that guitar in A1's window one Saturday morning in '88 or '89 when Tony brought it in and hung it up with the price tag on it.

His reasonning at the time was 'if Rhythm House can have nice expensive guitars for sale, so can we'.

He offered it to me in 1986 when I was searching for my first Les Paul. I never trusted him after he sold me an old Fender Twin that kept blowing valves.
 
Y

yeti

Guest
All these reports are making me sad. I was looking forward to this year's Arlington show but right now I don't feel like buying another vintage guitar :(

Don't let these stories take the fun out of your hobby. Seeing this stuff come to light actually makes me feel a lot better about the vintage guitar world.
These threads are long overdue.
 

mistersnappy

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 20, 2006
Messages
7,321
All these reports are making me sad. I was looking forward to this year's Arlington show but right now I don't feel like buying another vintage guitar :(

No, you may just have to alter what you are looking for and from whom to buy it. Certain items just aint worth trouble to fake.
 

Jumping@Shadows

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 11, 2003
Messages
1,330
The Bob guitar was subsequently bought for £30k which is the pertinent point- £1200 in '86 is not to be sniffed at but that poorly done replica was sold as the real deal soon after- as it turned out that buyer is a millionaire and in his own words £30k was a slight inconvenience at most and he's over it, but it did reach the intended target even after many years of circulation.
 

Jumping@Shadows

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 11, 2003
Messages
1,330
FYI Chris Trigg of Vintage And Rare Guitars was unable to call it a replica despite every detail beyond the scale length being incorrect, but that should surprise very few.
 

Tom Wittrock

Les Paul Forum Co-Owner
Joined
Aug 2, 2001
Messages
42,567
All these reports are making me sad. I was looking forward to this year's Arlington show but right now I don't feel like buying another vintage guitar :(

One thing about a show like Arlington .... you have a dozen or more guys there who will help you decide if a guitar is "right" or a deal is "fair".
Outside of a show like that, it is much harder to get that level of help. :salude
 
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