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more questions on my ES-345

Doc W

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Aug 16, 2010
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Strings Jr-That's what I was thinking, no dot at the first fret and then it looks like the dot's diameter is larger than the parallelogram is wide so you should see four parts of the two fill in dots at the 12th fret if it was a re-purposed board.

I will try to get that pic tomorrow. It is hard to explain, but given what you just said, let me try a little harder. I completely forgot that, of course, there would be two dots at the 12th fret on an ES-335 fretboard. If this were repurposed for a 345, each of the dots at the 12th fret would have been replaced by a parallelogram. A "fill" dot between the parallelograms would therefore not have been necessary. However, between the two parallelograms in the 12 fret is a black dot, no more than 1/4 the size of the fill dots in other frets. Most importantly, it does not look like the other fill dots at all. This may sound goofy, but it looks like nothing more than a mark indicating where to drill.

This is getting so interesting. Thanks for all the input. I promise to get that photo posted here asap.
 

Doc W

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Aug 16, 2010
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Thanks for posting that, Mike.

If you compare this 12th fret dot to the other frets in there are those fills (little round "plugs") you can see that this is quite different. The other frets make sense, if this was a fretboard which originally had a dot. In those cases, the fret markers are parallelograms and the dot was simply filled in. But what the heck is that little ... whatever... in the 12th fret?
 

VamboRool

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Nov 25, 2015
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That's interesting. Also after seeing your photo of the 12th fret it reminded me that the parallelograms get wider as you head towards the nut. How about a photo that shows the 3rd and 5th fret markers. Is there a "2" on the back of the head stock denoting a factory second? I don't think there will be. BTW-this is fun!
 

Strings Jr.

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Jan 17, 2016
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Looks like remnants of plugs at the 12th fret also.

Look at the outside edges of the inlays.
 

brandtkronholm

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Dec 3, 2006
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2,737
Looks like remnants of plugs at the 12th fret also.

Interesting. The guitar looks like it has been re-fretted. Could it have received an entirely new fretboard? I can't tell if the size of the inlays is off or not. (They don't look immediately suspect to me...) What do the binding fret markers look like?

Look at the outside edges of the inlays.

What should Doc W (and the rest of us arm chair authenticators) be looking for?
 

MikeSlub

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Jul 15, 2001
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My ES 345's:

4145_p55034.jpg
 

Doc W

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Aug 16, 2010
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Interesting. The guitar looks like it has been re-fretted. Could it have received an entirely new fretboard? I can't tell if the size of the inlays is off or not. (They don't look immediately suspect to me...) What do the binding fret markers look like?

I don't think that it has been refretted. If it was, it would have been done pre-1980. Same with a new fretboard. If either were done, the question would be "why"?

I will take some more photos today.
 

Doc W

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Aw, Mike, what didja do that for? Now I got drool all over the keyboard. Dang.
 

GuitarMikey

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<a href="https://imgur.com/xtovWS2"><img src="https://i.imgur.com/xtovWS2.jpg" title="source: imgur.com" /></a>

<a href="https://imgur.com/wsNOMgn"><img src="https://i.imgur.com/wsNOMgn.jpg" title="source: imgur.com" /></a>

<a href="https://imgur.com/Qey4THZ"><img src="https://i.imgur.com/Qey4THZ.jpg" title="source: imgur.com" /></a>
 

Doc W

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Aug 16, 2010
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Mike posted a few more photos. You can see the serial number clearly but the "2" in this case, doesn't mean second. It is just part of the serial number. The other two photos are of frets 3-5, and the very end of the fretboard. I sent that last one so you can see the range of colour used on the markers. That fret has the two most extreme colour of fret marker. One very shiny and almost plain, the other darker and more complex in texture. It varies up and down the neck.

Brandt, the binding fretmarkers are pretty straightforward: black dots following the same pattern as the main fretmakers, i.e., 1, 3, 5, etc.

Here is something else interesting: if I run my finger up and down the binding, it feels slightly rippled, unlike my 1952 Les Paul (which has been refretted). I don't know what that means, but perhaps it says that the binding was taken off at one point, for who knows why. Mike what about the binding on your guitars?

I may be looking at this too closely. maybe I am starting to see things.
 

brandtkronholm

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Dec 3, 2006
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I don't think that it has been refretted. If it was, it would have been done pre-1980. Same with a new fretboard. If either were done, the question would be "why"?

I will take some more photos today.

I'm thinking the frets are probably original at this point. Original binding nibs on a 1961 Gibson are entirely different creatures than modern Gibson nibs.
 

Sol

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Oct 26, 2001
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775
I'm hoping to find my first ES335/ES345 this year. And a mono ES345 would be a great result.
I've been told that there is a tone difference between the ES335 and the ES345. Can those familiar with these models comment on this with your experience with these two models ?

I'm aware of the Varitone circuit, and that it extends the tonal range. I'm referring to tone differences apart from the Varitone.
 

reddeluxe

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Apr 27, 2017
Messages
82
AFAIK, '61 is the only ES 345 year for the first fret split position markers and they seem to occur randomly. I happened to have owned a cherry '61 almost identical to the picture Mike Slub posted, including the first fret marker. It positively did not have any rosewood dot fillers in the fretboard and was definitely one complete piece. My guess is that there was a run of first marker boards that were completed, but used randomly, not sequentially, throughout that year. That is also why you find original PAF pickups with gold covers far outside the acknowledged timeline of production (all the way up to '65 in some rare cases). Simple reason, far fewer gold covered pickups were used than the standard nickel covers (mainly on the high end models of each line such as ES 345 and 355, LP Custom, SG Custom, Super 400, L-5, and other various jazz archtops, all with relatively low production numbers). After the pickups were built and covers added, they simply went in the parts bin (inventory) and used until depleted and restocked. The first position boards were probably used the same way and just randomly mixed in with previously completed fretboards. Just my personal educated guess....who really knows?
 

Wally

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Feb 27, 2003
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3,535
Imho, that guitar has been refretted. All traces of nibs are gone, and the fret ends have been beveled in a manner to indicate a refret with the nibs worked away......imho. Not that that matters much at all with a guitar of that age. Nice guitar....
 

OKGuitar

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Jan 20, 2011
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My 2 cents. Some 61's have the first fret marker some don't. It is the only year to have the first fret marker. I've never seen a dot board repurposed to be a 345 (and I've owned at least 175 ES-345's). I wouldn't doubt for a minute that this is something done at the factory. I have seen a 335/345 neck repurposed with new wings to be a 355 neck (not the board, just the neck). Thats often what the stinger on a 355 is covering (the tuner holes are in the wrong place on a 335 board if it's converted to 355). Here's what's under the stinger and it's absolutely factory (I've seen at least 3 so far). So, bottom line...anything is possible at Gibson is the 50's and 60's. The 61 in this thread is re-fretted

stingerz.jpg
 
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