• Guys, we've spent considerable money converting the Les Paul Forum to this new XenForo platform, and we have ongoing monthly operating expenses. THE "DONATIONS" TAB IS NOW WORKING, AND WE WOULD APPRECIATE ANY DONATIONS YOU CAN MAKE TO KEEP THE LES PAUL FORUM GOING! Thank you!

1960 Burst @ Historic Makeovers

sunburst1

Active member
Joined
Sep 3, 2002
Messages
3,989
Mick R's '59 (from Bad Company) 'burst had the same thing done from a '59 Jr... Remember it was for sale at solidbodyguitar.com Had some serious flame , but the serial # was inlayed like mentioned from a '59 Jr. , it looked well done , but a huge devaluation none the less...
 

MapleFlame

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 3, 2005
Messages
14,044
There are many Burst buyers who don't come here.

As for who cares what the number is, the person that already has the legitimate Gibson with the number you use will care.
And those who don't like to see guitar buyers fraudulently taken advantage will also care.
I fall into the latter category. I hope others do also. :ganz

It's fraud to misrepresent a replica I agree, but this is a real Burst and even if it had the same serial number of another Burst, it's still a refin and is very well documented. This is a totally different animal. I don't agree do destroy a Melody Maker even more just to get the serial number off. Why is that better than just using a made up number. If that gets sold then it has the same number as the Burst. Just because the melody maker is a cheapo doesn't make it right to steal that too.
 

Tom Wittrock

Les Paul Forum Co-Owner
Joined
Aug 2, 2001
Messages
42,567
I don't agree do destroy a Melody Maker even more just to get the serial number off. Why is that better than just using a made up number. If that gets sold then it has the same number as the Burst. Just because the melody maker is a cheapo doesn't make it right to steal that too.

I have to agree. :)
 
Y

yeti

Guest
It's fraud to misrepresent a replica I agree, but this is a real Burst and even if it had the same serial number of another Burst, it's still a refin and is very well documented. This is a totally different animal. I don't agree do destroy a Melody Maker even more just to get the serial number off. Why is that better than just using a made up number. If that gets sold then it has the same number as the Burst. Just because the melody maker is a cheapo doesn't make it right to steal that too.

Maybe it's just me but in my book it's fraud to tamper with the serial number, period. That number isn't there anymore, the damage is done. everything else is just creating an illusion and therefore not a good idea in the long term since you never know where the guitar will end up. If it was my guitar I'd leave it blank until such time that I can trace back the original number.
Unfortunately that might open another can of worms regarding the possibility of theft and recovery of stolen goods so just leave it alone.
Of course this is just my unsolicited opinion so pay no attention.:2cool

yeah, and leave that MM alone!
 

abalonevintage

Active member
Joined
Dec 31, 2002
Messages
3,186
The reason the guitar is being restored now is because it was not done to perfection the last time.

If that gets sold then it has the same number as the Burst.

You strip the number off the Melody Maker...hence the name "donor" guitar. It gave its life so that another may live. :3zone :rofl

everything else is just creating an illusion and therefore not a good idea in the long term since you never know where the guitar will end up.

Based on this logic, you could also make the case that restoring the guitar to perfection is creating an "illusion." :rolleyes:
 
Last edited:

Greco

New member
Joined
Apr 23, 2006
Messages
2,181
I'm sorry but who-frikkin-cares about all this preserving it for future generations crap? Enjoy your guitar and make sure they remember to fire it out of the cannon along with your ashes once you've kicked the bucket. The yoof of today probably won't be able to tell this from an Epiphone anyway!
 
Y

yeti

Guest
I'm sorry but who-frikkin-cares about all this preserving it for future generations crap? Enjoy your guitar and make sure they remember to fire it out of the cannon along with your ashes once you've kicked the bucket. The yoof of today probably won't be able to tell this from an Epiphone anyway!

You know, after thinking about it I think you're right:jim :salude :2zone :dude: :3zone
 
Y

yeti

Guest
Based on this logic, you could also make the case that restoring the guitar to perfection is creating an "illusion." :rolleyes:

I disagree as long as the restoration is done correctly. You should restore it to original specs without misstating it's provenance and history. Only put back what you know was there.
What about adding a slightly modified donor "bill of sale" or other case candy? How about some photoshopped pics of the "original owner" gigging with it back in the day? If you have a donor-polaroid everything will be fine, correct?
Fine pieces of art are being restored all the time but I don't think any serious restorer would consider putting a lost signature or date back or something of that magnitude especially if the name and date are unknown.

Again, just my opinion and in the end the owner should do as he pleases, it's only a guitar.
 

hoss

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 1, 2004
Messages
6,748
There are so many refinished Bursts, that don't have a serial#. Jimmy Page's for example.
Why not leave it blank?
 

JIMI55LP

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 28, 2005
Messages
1,588
Because Jimmy Pages guitar will be worth 5 to 10 times as much as other 59 Burdt's because of it's past even if it had neck repairs, missing serial#, shaved neck, lost electronics, Etc. I think it's a question of what the owner needs done to feel good with the restoration. This guitar is not being done in secret, and who wouldn't be able to determine that the wood under the serial# has been plugged/veneered even if it gets a stinger. I can't believe anyone is not going to examine this guitar to the nines when considering a future purchase at the price it will command? I don't see this as a coverup to mislead future buyers, but I can understand how it could be sold that way to someone that didn't know what most of us do. It's not my guitar, so I'm OK with what ever is done if it doesn't involve defacing it!
 

kerryboy

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 20, 2002
Messages
1,199
Is anybody going to reveal the history of this guitar, or can you direct me to a link. I'm sort of fired up and would like to know more.

For example, was the first refin done to disguise it?

Bye the way, I liked it as it was, but I am sure it will look fantastic when it done again. This is going to be a great thread.
 

Hardrockmapletop

Active member
Joined
Sep 1, 2007
Messages
1,026
Hi Kerry.
Here's some of the story, and a couple of photos prior to it's last refinish.

From Steve Segal's Ebay auction.
"This guitar has been consigned to me by a good friend and I have known it for the last 25 years. It is a transition sized neck 1960 flametop. The transition neck, as it is known, is not as large as a 58 or 59, but not nearly as small as the later "tomato soup colored" 60s that were known as "pencil necks". From what I have gathered or seen in my 40 years of collecting and buying and selling vintage guitars, transition neck 60s were made in the 0 1000 to 0 1500 serial # range. This particular guitar was refinished badly at one time and then later professionally refinished again as a restoration. Although the 1st refin was a bad one, the guitar was spared any other torture and the stripping or sanding of the guitar was actually quite goods in that very little wood was removed and the contours are all in great shape as evidenced in the pictures. All parts are correct including the PU surrounds. The pick guard is a cut P90 guard. Everything else is correct and original to the guitar. There is no serial # . The top on the guitar is the best I have ever seen on a 60 bar none. It is a 10 in coverage and a 10 in depth. A true 10 top that lights up strong from any angle. If this guitar had it's original finish, I would venture to say that a few known collectors would be fighting over it at $300K. It is quite spectacular as seen in the photos. It comes with a period correct brown case in nice condition."

From correspondence I had with Don Lee, who confirmed the origins of the guitar.
"The guitar was bought by 2 friends of mine in Montreal from an antique store/ pawn shop. They never told me exactly as they wanted to keep their hunting spots quiet.*One of the owners bought it outright afterwards. It has been over 10 years since i have seen the guitar after the owner had it refined by Brian*Monty. As discussed on the forum it has a crappy laquerish shellac finish on it. It had a transition neck from my memory. I would guess early to mid 60."

And from Don's post on a previous thread about the ebay auction,
"HI guys, I can add to the origins of the refin 60 being sold by JJB. The guitar was bought through an antique dealer if my memory serves me right. The guitar was bought by two friends of mine in Montreal (Circa 2001,2002?). When bought the guitar had a very bad refinish ala 70's hideous filthy tomato soup sunburst that did not show off the top. The owner had it redone to show off the spectacular top. The guitar has a transitional neck and had most of its original contours. The guitar is definitely an original topped guitar for what it's worth. Hope this adds something."

more info from Steve,
"Bought circa 1993 Don and the finish was a brushed on amber urethane that was so old and decrepit that it was almost opaque. The only way the owner knew that there was "some" flame under there was by the spot of half moon arm wear that was about 3/4" wide. When the guitar was finally stripped and refinished, everyone was blown away. - Steve Segal"

and here's the pics from before the last refin...
88325484.jpg

lp2p.jpg
 
Y

yeti

Guest
no one know how or why the serial number was scooped out of the headstock?

Maybe because it was 0-666 or something:wah
In many cases serial numbers are removed because the person removing the number doesn't want the item to be traced. But sometimes the number is just removed during refinishing. That doesn't seem to be the reason here.
There are instances where the number is missing due to a reneck or other headstock repair.

---edit---

Just re-read my post and I just want to make absolutely clear that I'm not trying to raise any questions regarding ownership of this guitar or question the sellers' right to sell, etc. Many guitars, including the Burst in my Avatar are bought and sold legitimately despite having been stolen at some point.
 
Last edited:

Red Baron

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 14, 2004
Messages
6,774
It has a serial number (0 0975) that suits the neck profile, the thing already has a major heal break, and can be had for $1,000.

If it were mine I doubt I'd be able to justify spending $1k for a serial number.

Look at it from this angle - this thread will always be here for anyone to use for reference and I would assume that most buyers wanting to authenticate a 'stories' burst will likely do some research that will inevitably lead them to this thread. All of the info is here so IMO it doesn't need a serial number.
 
Top