Exposing the "evil doers"...

VonPrikler · Feb 12, 2014

Googling that V's serial reveals... that V has since disappeared into oblivion.
Probably a good thing... hopefully it never shows up again.

JBLPplayer · Feb 12, 2014

It is important to also know the tell tale signs of Skullduggery. Split tops, Heel joints, top carves of both real with "issues" and all out fakes. The Romans had a two word saying for it. Caveat Emptor. As a buyer you have to do the due dilligence yourself first then buy only from trusted sources that you yourself feel comfortable with. English guys with a P as the first letter in their name might be a good place not to start if say in the market for a burst or Marshall combo. Just saying, you only get burned if you play with fire.
( that's a decent song title ...)
Joe B

landminelenny · Feb 12, 2014

Banker said:
They're the pertinent questions.

That no-one is answering

moonweasel · Feb 13, 2014

JBLPplayer said:
Just saying, you only get burned if you play with fire.
( that's a decent song title ...)
Joe B

Or...

You only get burned if you play with women.

moonweasel · Feb 13, 2014

One of the reasons I wrote my website was to combat people calling all sorts of guitars "1968 Les Pauls". My guitar came to me through an act of kindness, so why not pay it back? I have gotten "thank you" emails from people in Malaysia and dozens of other countries. It's nice to help people in the struggle against "evil doers".

Red Baron · Feb 13, 2014

Late 60's LP's are misrepresented more than bursts, often blatantly by vintage dealers who should know better ...if in doubt all they need to do is search and study Stephen's site, but I think some would prefer to rely on 'confusion' because it's a convenient (and profitable) excuse...

yeti · Feb 13, 2014

JBLPplayer said:
It is important to also know the tell tale signs of Skullduggery. Split tops, Heel joints, top carves of both real with "issues" and all out fakes. The Romans had a two word saying for it. Caveat Emptor. As a buyer you have to do the due dilligence yourself first then buy only from trusted sources that you yourself feel comfortable with. English guys with a P as the first letter in their name might be a good place not to start if say in the market for a burst or Marshall combo. Just saying, you only get burned if you play with fire.
( that's a decent song title ...)
Joe B

There are museum curators and art collectors who have been fooled

http://www.artsandartists.org/exhibitions-intenttodeceive.php

investigative reporters who have been fooled (Hitler diaries, anyone?)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_Diaries,

vintage guitar experts who have been fooled and so on. Your advice to "know the telltale signs" is great but the good forgers know those as well and how to avoid them. Buying from trusted sources can mean a lot of things, but sometimes it only means that you can trust that there are no intentions of fraud. Due diligence is great but it only goes so far. Provenance may still your best bet but is no guarantee either. When you buy a high dollar vintage guitar you are playing with fire......always. Just my opinion, off course.

surfreak · Feb 13, 2014

JBLPplayer said:
English guys with a P as the first letter in their name might be a good place not to start if say in the market for a burst or Marshall combo.

That's very true. This is why when that Page-y dude offered to sell his #1 for $3k I indignantly refused....

JBLPplayer · Feb 13, 2014

yeti said:
There are museum curators and art collectors who have been fooled

http://www.artsandartists.org/exhibitions-intenttodeceive.php

investigative reporters who have been fooled (Hitler diaries, anyone?)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_Diaries,

vintage guitar experts who have been fooled and so on. Your advice to "know the telltale signs" is great but the good forgers know those as well and how to avoid them. Buying from trusted sources can mean a lot of things, but sometimes it only means that you can trust that there are no intentions of fraud. Due diligence is great but it only goes so far. Provenance may still your best bet but is no guarantee either. When you buy a high dollar vintage guitar you are playing with fire......always. Just my opinion, off course.

If you have handled enough real guitars the fire becomes smoldering ambers. If you are vintage guitar dealer and get fooled by a fake for more than 12 hours, you should try another profession. That should be your professional obligation to do the due diligence or take the guitar back if sold with the utmost humbleness. Use your eyes and trust your gut that or consult the Yeti guide to vintage guitars and disregard anything I have to say. Cause I've never done the dance and am a mere outsider looking in wannabe hobbyist :dude: :##

Joe B

landminelenny · Feb 13, 2014

JBLPplayer said:
If you have handled enough real guitars the fire becomes smoldering ambers. If you are vintage guitar dealer and get fooled by a fake for more than 12 hours, you should try another profession. That should be your professional obligation to do the due diligence or take the guitar back if sold with the utmost humbleness.

Joe B

:dude:

Spot on and well said.

I bought a 50's Gibson Les Paul from a very well respected guitar guy that I inspected briefly and later realised the tuner holes had been plugged and re-drilled from having had Grovers installed. The work had been expertly disguised and only showed up under backlight. I had to humbly call the guy up and apologise saying I had made a mistake and told him to turn around and drive back with the money. He did. Thankfully. Lesson learned.

madformac · Feb 13, 2014

JBLPplayer said:
If you have handled enough real guitars the fire becomes smoldering ambers. If you are vintage guitar dealer and get fooled by a fake for more than 12 hours, you should try another profession. That should be your professional obligation to do the due diligence or take the guitar back if sold with the utmost humbleness.

Joe B

Agreed. Also pays to do your homework as a buyer. If you are spending good money, particularly Burst money for instance, then you don't want to go find the nearest vintage dealer without checking who you are dealing with properly. Not unless you go into the sale knowing you can afford to lose the money if it all goes wrong, which is a very careless attitude.

As always stated, buy the seller not the instrument.

It is also worth pointing out there are many sellers that have fantastic integrity and experience and it's not a complete piranha club out there. Guys like Gary Winterflood, Joe Ganzler, TW and others I would trust without question.

Skipped · Feb 13, 2014

A forum member who lives in the North West of the Uk has bought at least one very expensive vintage guitar from a particular ebay seller, which turned out to be not as described. He has had some assistance from knowledgeable forum members and I hope that at some point we will hear about a satisfactory outcome. A member of the other forum posted a NGD thread showing a '54 GT from the same seller. The buyer must have been stunned to see the replies pointing out some rather alarming issues.

It is a tragedy that - to date - we, the people who read these posts, have not yet thought of a way to stop a seller from reposting such guitars on ebay with the same description after (presumably) agreeing to take them back.
Due dilligence is a good thing, and is good advice. But at some point in the near future, another poor soul is going to find this forum, and then join the forum, after buying one of these guitars.
There must be an answer - and the answer seems to lie somewhere in the following area. Putting together - The knowledge of the online community.....and ebay. I don't know enough about ebay to guess what the options might be but I do know that if the seller decided to change his ID and then reposted the guitars, 20 people who are reading this thread would immediately recognize the problem guitar/guitars.

hoss · Feb 13, 2014

Skipped said:
A member of the other forum posted a NGD thread showing a '54 GT from the same seller. The buyer must have been stunned to see the the replies pointing out some rather alarming issues.

...at some point in the near future, another poor soul is going to find this forum, and then join the forum, after buying one of these guitars.

Well put!

Great thread, thanks John!

yeti · Feb 13, 2014

JBLPplayer said:
If you have handled enough real guitars the fire becomes smoldering ambers.

Agreed.

JBLPplayer said:
If you are vintage guitar dealer and get fooled by a fake for more than 12 hours, you should try another profession.

If that became the benchmark we'd be looking at a lot of jobseekers with non-transferable job skills.

JBLPplayer said:
That should be your professional obligation to do the due diligence or take the guitar back if sold with the utmost humbleness.

Agreed 100%

JBLPplayer said:
... that or consult the Yeti guide to vintage guitars

I wouldn't recommend it

eace2
but since you asked, my guide is to buy the guitar, nothing else. If the guitar is worth the price as an instrument then none of this stuff matters.

JBLPplayer said:
... and disregard anything I have to say. Cause I've never done the dance and am a mere outsider looking in wannabe hobbyist :dude: :##

Joe B

your words, not mine, Joe. I'd never advise anybody to disregard anything.

FWIW, I know a guy who sold over 5,000 vintage guitars, wrote articles on that stuff for GP, VG mag and other and I have discussed this very issue many times. Even the best, most experienced eyes and hands get fooled every once in a while.

Wilko · Feb 13, 2014

There's a reason Ganzler won't verify Fenders.

landminelenny · Feb 13, 2014

Wilko said:
There's a reason Ganzler won't verify Fenders.

I'd imagine with his fees it's not cost effective for the potential buyer.

Banker · Feb 13, 2014

landminelenny said:
I'd imagine with his fees it's not cost effective for the potential buyer.

I spent a reasonable amount of money with Joe on a guitar, sight unseen, deal done with a single 5 minute phone call.

He did everything that would be expected and more, was extremely up front about every single detail and baby walked it to my door. Most professional deal guitar purchase I've been part of.

My only complaint was that I paid for lunch, and that was in the pre-skinny Joe days.

landminelenny · Feb 13, 2014

Banker said:
I spent a reasonable amount of money with Joe on a guitar, sight unseen, deal done with a single 5 minute phone call.

He did everything that would be expected and more, was extremely up front about every single detail and baby walked it to my door. Most professional deal guitar purchase I've been part of.

My only complaint was that I paid for lunch, and that was in the pre-skinny Joe days.

Aah, but still, you had his company! I enjoyed Joe's company in an awful hotel sports bar one year at Dallas. He was a good sport but not sure he understood all of my humour. He even wore long trousers. Top bloke :dude:

Beano Geno · Feb 13, 2014

So has Joe gotten out of the vintage guitar business? or just the LPF?

Exposing the "evil doers"...

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