Full and Narrow Spaced Vintage Gibsons

I think it's important to understand that making music with a guitar and appreciating fine instruments are two completely different things and one does not necessarily have any bearing on the other.

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That is so well said, and I love both aspects of being in the guitar world, but they are two completely different highs. It is always a privilege to have someone come up to you after they hear you play live and complement you on your playing. But the joy of setting with a fellow tone chaser and comparing guitars, amps, speakers, tubes, etc., that is the reason forums like this exist. Unfortunately on the forums we can only discuss this stuff in sonic adjectives. My hope for everyone is that they have the opportunity to have someone in their life that they can have the physical experience of hanging with like J45. And for all us old farts that have a house full of great gear we need to make sure to teach the young people in our lives that there really is a difference in how this stuff sounds.

I do love the forum!

Would reversing the neck pick-up on any of these instruments add or remove the 'whistling coke bottle' sound? (I like to call it the 'shimmering sword' tone.)

i.e.,Would flipping the adjustable pole pieces on a neck humbucker so they were further from the end of the fretboard instead of being adjacent to the end of the fret board detract from the 'whistling coke bottle' sound?

On the other hand, would positioning the pole pieces on a Byrdland/ES350 so they were farther from the fret board offer a different, possibly better, harmonic result?


I've been under the impression that it doesn't matter either way.

Thoughts?

ANgus Young's 10K$ Signature SG is 1.555" nut width copied from his 68 that all the recordings with the perfect tone.

I had a late 60's, 1 9/16th's inch nut width, ES335 and it was alright. When I was younger I really liked the narrow nuts (string spacing) for some chording and speed guitar leads. Fast forward to now my decades of approach to the guitar has changed - 1 11/16ths inch is just fine by me.

The E to E string spread on the saddle is another story.....

tippy said:

ANgus Young's 10K$ Signature SG is 1.555" nut width copied from his 68 that all the recordings with the perfect tone.

I had a late 60's, 1 9/16th's inch nut width, ES335 and it was alright. When I was younger I really liked the narrow nuts (string spacing) for some chording and speed guitar leads. Fast forward to now my decades of approach to the guitar has changed - 1 11/16ths inch is just fine by me.

The E to E string spread on the saddle is another story.....

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Really don't think the difference in the nut widths would have anything to do at all with the harmonics the pickups see or a noticible variation of tone..

Here's a photo of two squawkless thinline Gibsons, long-scale Byrdland on the left, L-5 CT on right:

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Those are THE bomb! :applaude

The luthier that fit a soundpost in my 175 works with violins and showed me how the random tuning of the pressed plywood tops pose a problem when compared to the "tap tuned" spruce tops.

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Our friend and very respected luthier Billy Chapman, put sound posts in his Gretsch guitars decades ago. He swore by this technique....and he certainly convinced me. As someone who is almost exclusively a solid body player I have never experimented with this, but it clearly should be adopted by more players. Good call, Kerry.

Also, do SG Specials have the standard harmonic relationship between neck pickup and bridge pickup?

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Not really an answer, but....If I am locating placement for a pickup on a custom instrument, I check neck pickup placement (as opposed to measuring it) by seeing if I can get a harmonic "chime" directly over where the pole pieces would be.

My '63 L5CT had pickups added at some point in time, and probably not by Gibson. The placement of the neck pickup is slightly closer to the neck than standard (the pointed tip of the f'board binding was cut off), and the spacing of the two pickups is also slightly off the standard spacing. Regardless of that, this guitar (parallel braced) has the sweetest, warmest, fattest, most sustaining tone of any Gibson archtop I've ever owned- and I've had many over the years.

And here we have three different pickup spacings, photo from 1971:



Even with some squawk, the Byrdland was a beautiful guitar.

Danny W.

abalonevintage said:

Our friend and very respected luthier Billy Chapman, put sound posts in his Gretsch guitars decades ago. He swore by this technique....and he certainly convinced me. As someone who is almost exclusively a solid body player I have never experimented with this, but it clearly should be adopted by more players. Good call, Kerry.

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A soundpost under the bridge in my '62 ES-330 helped improve a smoother decay of fretted notes. Previously, notes would die out quicker and wobble a bit in the decay. It's my favourite guitar right now.



Is the neck pickup position on the short-neck early/mid 60s ES-330 model in the same spot as a 335-style? Visually, it appears so but I haven't measured it.



I had a '65 SG Special with the narrower pickup spacing and never attributed the more mid-rangey tones to the spacing, but that makes sense to me. The neck pickup was never quite "there" for me, and I eventually sold it.




Yes, I seem to have a thing for red Gibsons... eace2

JimR56 said:

My '63 L5CT had pickups added at some point in time, and probably not by Gibson. The placement of the neck pickup is slightly closer to the neck than standard (the pointed tip of the f'board binding was cut off), and the spacing of the two pickups is also slightly off the standard spacing. Regardless of that, this guitar (parallel braced) has the sweetest, warmest, fattest, most sustaining tone of any Gibson archtop I've ever owned- and I've had many over the years.

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Great guitar!

Thanks Michael. It's a "player's guitar" for sure. A little beat up (it was that way when I got it), but it has that magic mojo. Almost plays itself.

I'm looking to buy an early/mid-50s ES-350 and when researching them I ran into something interesting with the neck pickup position, and remembered this thread that J45 started a couple of years go... so I thought I'd revive the discussion.

There are two positions for the neck pickup... early (further from the fretboard, but in the same position relative to the scale as a LP gold top - the ES-350 has two fewer frets so it appears it's further from the 12th fret, but it's actually in the same position):




And, the other position which is closer to the 12th fret, and right up against the fretboard... so as a result this is a further pickup spread than you would get with a P90 LP:



And a later one with the 4 controls + toggle (like the photo of Bill Morgan's above in the first post):




Thoughts on this ?

Alos, something to consider is comparing the '71 SG Standard PUP spacing to the '71 SG Deluxe..the pickup was about a half inch or so from the fretboard edge on SGs from 61-71..then on the Deluxe, the PUP butts against the fretboard and stayed that way for almost 20 years..this is due to the neck set being deeper, but that flutey, vocal sound (quite LP like) is much more evident than a SG with the traditional spacing..then in 1974, the bridge pickup moved back closer to the bridge..perhaps these were issues noted by Gibson's designers, and maybe this was done to correct that..:hmm

Kris Ford said:

..then in 1974, the bridge pickup moved back closer to the bridge..perhaps these were issues noted by Gibson's designers, and maybe this was done to correct that..:hmm

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That forward positioning of the bridge pickup yields a sound I'm not crazy about. Not commonly used on Gibsons (any besides the SG Special?) but common enough on 60's Gretsches that move the pickup forward to make room for the string mute. Kind of a funky sound but not as useful to me as the more rearward bridge pickup position. Less snarl.

It is a matter of SCALE not that one is in different distances. Short scales have shorter distances and tighter spacing. The location is the same, relative to harmonic node points as longer scale. What you are adverse to is short scale. The Scale length has a profound effect on the tones heard.

Hey Big Al - I agree the scale is different in the later 50s ES-350T and the Byrdland, but that's not what's going on with the early 50s ES-350 and LP Special, right?

I really miss Kerry's insightful comments. Hope he may come back sometime soon. wow
All the best to you J45 !

:salude

Any other comments on the 2 different positions for the neck pickup on the older ES 350s above?

Unbound Dot Neck said:

I really miss Kerry's insightful comments. Hope he may come back sometime soon. wow
All the best to you J45 !

:salude

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This is you're lucky day -- all of ours, really. Glad you're back, Kerry/J45!

Doesn't the pickup position to some extent get washed out once you're fretting notes further up the neck?

Joseph Palmer said:

Doesn't the pickup position to some extent get washed out once you're fretting notes further up the neck?

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Just wow, I can't tell you how nice it is to read what you fellows have written. Been through a really tough year, diabolically blindsided actually, but I'm sure a lot of you guys have gone through the big "D". Joseph, the relationship between pickups and the harmonics on the scale of the soundboard does not change no matter where you fret...and if you think about it, even more so, the combined effect and relationship in the middle position harmonics stays even more odd on the narrow spacing in the middle position...this is where I've always had my gripes with those narrow spaced Gibsons and they never get that sweet, funky and sparkling tone that the "full" spaces do to me. I think of Leo Nocentelli's classic mid position sounds with the Meters as the definitive "middle" tone...even though many of those recording were on Jazzmasters, the Gibsons do that equally as well.. especially P-90's. Also, even when you fret on single pickup, the place that individual pickup is set on the harmonic scale is what determines that "sound" of the pickup. All three Stratocaster pickups have very different sounds and it's not because they are different pickups...they are all the same pickup...it is the location on the harmonic that determines the tone of the pickup...no matter where you fret... a neck pickup still sounds like a neck pickup no matter where you fret... it doesn't begin to sound like a bridge pickup. It's the location in the harmonic scale that makes a bridge pickup sound like a bridge pickup, neck like a neck, middle like a middle. I just haven't heard a narrow spaced Gibson with the sweet middle sound of the standard positioned p/u's. It seems to me the change was made for structural reasons at the expense tone. Pickup positions are not just a random thing...there are very dead harmonic spots that if the p/u is placed there you get a raunchy, somewhat "cheap" sounding guitar. I learned this the hard way trying to modify guitars for different p/u's and placement without understanding the precise placement in the harmonic scale is a very specific science and totally responsible for the great harmonic tones we get from guitars built this way.