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True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

majorminor

Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2017
Messages
96
Not knocking them but your ideas are a bit far fetched..

Yes they are. But go on any business course these days, and they will preach "thinking outside the box". They call it innovation.


It's simple. If you want a modern Les Paul built from the ground up like in 1959, you buy a replica.

I disagree. Folks who want a 59 Les Paul want a Gibson. That's why the THs continue to go up in price!

Also, you can X-ray a burst to find some of these invisible details. No need to destroy it.

So you have X-rays that can determine age and type of wood? And the composition of glues? Pretty cool!


I'm not saying that this is gonna happen. I am simply suggesting that it is possible.

To suggest it could not be done is, with respect, a little blinkered. There are millions of franchises out there that manage to make sure their franchisees do the job properly. How do they do that?

And how does, say, Apple make sure the Chinese sub contracters produce phones and computers up to the desired quality? It's not easy - but it IS possible.


Here's what Gibson could do:

1. Using third parties for anonymity, they send instruments to all the "makeover" guys, and order all the "improvements" that those guys offer.

2. When the guitars arrive back at Gibson, they are reverse engineered (a fancy way of saying ripped apart) and all the modifications are noted.

3. The Custom Shop produces prototypes containing ALL of the "makeover" modifications.

4. Gibson puts together a franchise package to be aimed at rebuilder/luthiers who have the best reputation. In return for a given fee, along with a % of each instrument, they will receive training at the factory, and a set of standards laid down, to which the franchisees would agree via a contract. All parts for the instrument would be supplied by Gibson. A quality control process would be created - I could go into far more detail on QC, but it CAN be done in various ways. In return for this, the franchisee will be able to advertise as say "A Gibson Accredited Luthier". Initially, maybe 2 in the US (East Coast and West Coast), 1 in the UK, 1 in Europe, 2 in Japan.

5. A new level of instrument would then become available. Call it what you will - "Ultra Historic", "Hand Built Historic", "Total Historic", whatever. It would be priced higher than the current THs - and would be available exclusively via the "Gibson Accredited Luthier" network. I think we all agree that these guys will do a better job than the factory.


I know it sounds far fetched, but if there are enough folks out there prepared to pay enough to keep the "makeover" guys in business, then there is no reason why Gibson shouldn't be able to bring that business back in house, and make money from it.

It could even free up enough factory space that they could bring the prices down on factory built instruments, and maybe even bring Epiphone production back to the US! :):)
 
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Orreman

New member
Joined
Jun 20, 2015
Messages
147
Top stripped today!

As you can see Gibson stains the TH guitars with yellow water-based stain which is not historically correct.
The originals were yellowed with the pigment in the lacquer.

I always thought it looked too yellow in a artificial way.
It will be amazing in Pearly Gates finish!

skLfc7M.jpg
 

El Gringo

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 8, 2015
Messages
5,657
Gibson is in the business of making guitars ,not piece meal building and then subcontracting out there top of the line custom shop creations and really dream guitars .To each there own to chase after there dream guitar but Gibson has been making instruments for what 150 years and it is a stretch that they would alter there build practices to essentially build KIT guitars .They are to big and world renowned for the highest quality instruments .I am most certainly not knocking this process but it just seems to me not what Gibson does .
 

sapi

New member
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Messages
1,292
Top stripped today!

As you can see Gibson stains the TH guitars with yellow water-based stain which is not historically correct.
The originals were yellowed with the pigment in the lacquer.

I always thought it looked too yellow in a artificial way.
It will be amazing in Pearly Gates finish!

skLfc7M.jpg

YES! :salude It's gonna be NICE! :dude:
 

The Shifter

Active member
Joined
Aug 31, 2004
Messages
3,397
Ten years ago, the record companies would never allow their stuff to be downloaded - and vinyl was dead. And it was ludicrous to suggest otherwise.

Now, the music industry does very well, thankyou, from downloads (and have drastically reduced their manufacturing overhead), and vinyl is the fastest growing segment in retail music sales.

Sorry to be another one to further derail this thread, but if you compared my BMI check from 10 years ago to now, you'd see the music biz is far from doing very well.
 

majorminor

Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2017
Messages
96
Sorry to be another one to further derail this thread, but if you compared my BMI check from 10 years ago to now, you'd see the music biz is far from doing very well.

Here's an extract from the International Federation of the Phonographic Industry Digital Music Report 2015:


UO6huY.jpg


"In 2014, the industry's global digital revenues increased by 6.9% to $6.85 BILLION"

I don't doubt what you are saying, my friend, but those are the figures - increased every year for the last 6.

My apologies for diverting the tread, but I am discussing makeovers, so hopefully on topic.
 
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Pellman73

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 9, 2016
Messages
1,762
Hi,

Today the top has been stripped!:)

It takes about 4-6 weeks for a complete makeover.

Thanks !

well this is going to be super fun to follow along. I'm guzzling the kool aid now!

keep Em coming and .... damn you! You've got me thinking about doing this myself!

All the conversion details that you bring along w the pics are great. No detail too small as far as this geek is concerned!
 

sws1

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 4, 2001
Messages
2,846
Here's an extract from the International Federation of the Phonographic Industry Digital Music Report 2015:


UO6huY.jpg


"In 2014, the industry's global digital revenues increased by 6.9% to $6.85 BILLION"

I don't doubt what you are saying, my friend, but those are the figures - increased every year for the last 6.

My apologies for diverting the tread, but I am discussing makeovers, so hopefully on topic.

I bet if you showed a graph of the collective amount of money that musicians have made in the same time frame, it would look a bit different.
 

marshall1987

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Messages
3,278
The skills of the luthiers doing these makeovers is far greater than the folks at Gibson assembling guitars.

It is hardly a case of some hack, tearing apart guitars.

Is that so?

You are aware that many of the "folks at Gibson", such as the guys shaping and fitting necks by hand have been doing this work for years? Same with the folks spraying the finishes, making the bodies, doing the PLEKS, and accomplishing guitar setups.

Sure there is a lot of CNC and other automation at Gibson's Nashville plant, but that is a reflection on the volume of units manufactured and the requirement for accurate, consistent, precise, and high quality components. Show me a modern production facility that doesn't use CNC and automation..........:dang

You need only read the glowing remarks on this forum posted by happy new owners of new Gibson True Historic Les Pauls to appreciate just how skilled Gibson workers really are.
 

majorminor

Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2017
Messages
96
I bet if you showed a graph of the collective amount of money that musicians have made in the same time frame, it would look a bit different.

I agree with you wholeheartedly , my friend, but my original point (only used to illustrate another point, so fairly irrelevant) was not about individual musicians - it was about Record Companies.

The main point I was discussing related to makeovers on Gibson guitars.... :)
 

djangolad

Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Messages
583
That's cool. It's your money, do as you wish, but why didn't you buy a regular historic to do that to? To pay a premium for (marketing) Gibson's most faithful recreation to date, and then give it a makeover, is sort of like paying twice for the same thing. You pay a premium to say "I have a True Historic" but now it's just a makeover no better than a non-TH makeover.
If you want a REAL True Historic you need the BRW board. I think if one was to go to all the expense and trouble to have a BRW upgrade you may as well go the whole hog so to speak. I get it, considering I generally think make overs are dumb! I would think twice about spending so much dough on a TH in the first place as they don't have BRW. I demand that in the next evolution.
 

Big Al

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Apr 24, 2002
Messages
14,537
If you want a REAL True Historic you need the BRW board. I think if one was to go to all the expense and trouble to have a BRW upgrade you may as well go the whole hog so to speak. I get it, considering I generally think make overs are dumb! I would think twice about spending so much dough on a TH in the first place as they don't have BRW. I demand that in the next evolution.

Sure. Maybe demand baby sealskin case covering, elephant ivory nuts and whale baleen binding too.
 

Pellman73

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Joined
Aug 9, 2016
Messages
1,762
Sure. Maybe demand baby sealskin case covering, elephant ivory nuts and whale baleen binding too.

The baby sealskin cases are fine as long as you have a CITES certificate. I've got one and its really nice. Much more waterproof than the classic liftons.
 

Orreman

New member
Joined
Jun 20, 2015
Messages
147
Here you can see that Gibson made a poor job when glueing in the neck. It's not flat at all. This means that the fretboard has been resting on a pretty thick layer of hide glue.
Florian and I decided today that he will do a full neck reset on the guitar. This will give the guitar better tone and sustain.

5fHFTgA.jpg


RuVYgdq.jpg


XTgA933.jpg


Mv6DsFP.jpg


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fender69

Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2003
Messages
998
^ Wow.....just wow..:bigalt :dang

Really is a beautiful top though.
 
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marshall1987

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Jan 30, 2005
Messages
3,278
"Here you can see that Gibson made a poor job when glueing in the neck. It's not flat at all. This means that the fretboard has been resting on a pretty thick layer of hide glue. [I doubt this was actually the case].
Florian and I decided today that he will do a full neck reset on the guitar.
This will give the guitar better tone and sustain."

BREAK.................................

If I'm not mistaken, the completed fingerboard is glued to the one-piece mahogany neck section before the assembled unit is fitted and glued in to the mortise (neck pocket) in the body. In all likelihood the two sections comprising the neck were mated perfectly and glued up without any gaps or flaws.

If there was an issue with the neck fit, most likely it was the mating of the outside edges of the neck/fingerboard (last 6 frets) to the underlying maple cap at the neck pocket. In other words, the carve of the maple cap in the area of the neck pocket was not sanded down sufficiently to allow for a flush, gap free, glue joint with the outside edges of the fingerboard (see OPs photos).

Seems like the most efficient solution is to properly sand down the maple cap in the area where the fingerboard overlaps it, to enable the two surfaces to mate properly without any gap. A neck reset is overkill and does not address the cause of the issue originally. DO NOT DO A NECK RESET.

Take a look at this You Tube video tour of the Gibson Custom Shop, around 4:15, which shows the neck fit of a True Historic Les Paul. There are also other instances in the video where the Les Paul neck construction is shown.

<iframe width="854" height="480" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/-1H5S_lZUFg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 
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Orreman

New member
Joined
Jun 20, 2015
Messages
147
"Here you can see that Gibson made a poor job when glueing in the neck. It's not flat at all. This means that the fretboard has been resting on a pretty thick layer of hide glue. [I doubt this was actually the case].
Florian and I decided today that he will do a full neck reset on the guitar.
This will give the guitar better tone and sustain."

BREAK.................................

If I'm not mistaken, the completed fingerboard is glued to the one-piece mahogany neck section before the assembled unit is fitted and glued in to the mortise (neck pocket) in the body. In all likelihood the two sections comprising the neck were mated perfectly and glued up without any gaps or flaws.

If there was an issue with the neck fit, most likely it was the mating of the outside edges of the neck/fingerboard (last 6 frets) to the underlying maple cap at the neck pocket. In other words, the carve of the maple cap in the area of the neck pocket was not sanded down sufficiently to allow for a flush, gap free, glue joint with the outside edges of the fingerboard (see OPs photos).

Seems like the most efficient solution is to properly sand down the maple cap in the area where the fingerboard overlaps it, to enable the two surfaces to mate properly without any gap. A neck reset is overkill and does not address the cause of the issue originally. DO NOT DO A NECK RESET.

Take a look at this You Tube video tour of the Gibson Custom Shop, around 4:15, which shows the neck fit of a True Historic Les Paul. There are also other instances in the video where the Les Paul neck construction is shown.

<iframe width="854" height="480" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/-1H5S_lZUFg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>


Well, it´s more to it than that. We don´t know how Gibson did it with this guitar, but the fretboard wasn't touching the neck within the neck pocket. There was´t hardly any glue there at all. Therefor we want to pull the neck off and see how the pocket looks inside. Florian told me that he often has to reset the necks because Gibson glues on the fretboard before the neck goes on the guitar. This means that sometimes the neck is not sitting properly in the neck pocket.
 

Pellman73

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Aug 9, 2016
Messages
1,762
Well, it´s more to it than that. We don´t know how Gibson did it with this guitar, but the fretboard wasn't touching the neck within the neck pocket. There was´t hardly any glue there at all. Therefor we want to pull the neck off and see how the pocket looks inside. Florian told me that he often has to reset the necks because Gibson glues on the fretboard before the neck goes on the guitar. This means that sometimes the neck is not sitting properly in the neck pocket.

Im not a master wood worker but I did stay in a holiday in express.

ok something logically does not make sense here to me. Somebody correct me (and it's a good chance I'm wrong!)

If (a) the fretboard is glued to the neck (b) before it goes on the guitar then (c) how It sits in the neck pocket should not matter with regards to the fretboard's position relative to the neck

UNLESS AS I SEE IT

the thickness of the body of the guitar in the joint is greater than it should be (front to back) In which case it kind of pries that last part of the fretboard off the neck when it's joined so there is that little gap?

in which case just sanding the body down there as marshall1987 said should be all you need to do.

just trying to understand this. I'd like to see where I'm wrong because there is a good chance I am.

btw in the video at 4 minutes you can watch the guy do a joint. Maybe it was a Monday when they did yours!!!

this is fun.
 
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zacknorton

Active member
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
731
Pretty easy to see that the top of the neck shaft wasn't planed flat.

Wtf? Is up with the derailing and crap talk of this thread? Shoot man...I'm not sending my guitars to florian to get reworked....but if I had the cash, I'd do it.

Super cool project, interesting to see that Gibson is NOT taking the steps you'd expect on their "flagship" guitars.

More...more.....more. And thank you
 
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