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True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

Pellman73

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New pictures from Florian today.

Now he has replaced the plastic plugs that Gibson uses to align the fretboard to the neck with mahogny ones.

Before:
UY6MLtG.jpg

mL57gju.jpg


After:
3ulAVVx.jpg

0M4ef5h.jpg

This is fascinating-- is this making it more "correct' in that the original bursts had wood plugs rather than plastic?
 

Bluuzman

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Dec 26, 2002
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New pictures from Florian today.

Now he has replaced the plastic plugs that Gibson uses to align the fretboard to the neck with mahogny ones.

0M4ef5h.jpg

:2cool Didn't know the existence of this plug. Could you post a wide angle picture to get an impression where this plug in relation to the whole neck is positioned?
 

MapleFlame

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:2cool Didn't know the existence of this plug. Could you post a wide angle picture to get an impression where this plug in relation to the whole neck is positioned?

If you look closely, the start of the body maple and tenon is to the right. I think theres another one on the opposite side 3/4's the way up the neck
 

majorminor

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Jan 18, 2017
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Looking at this thread raises a question in my mind. Maybe you guys know the answer.

Now, looking at those mahogany dowels, that is the kind of detail you would never see unless you completely disassemble an instrument.

So you might think my question is "why bother" -it will (hopefully) never be seen. But that isn't my question (although I can understand someone asking that).

No, my question is who the hell is tearing real 59 Bursts to pieces in order to discover those things in the first place??

Another quick thought:

I'm sure Florian does a great job - but wouldn't it be easier for Gibson to supply a set of new parts to designated "Makeover Artists", in order that they don't have the disassembling issues?

An original 50's instrument had not been made, torn apart, and then made again.

We blame so many things for tiny changes in tone - perhaps the very process we are seeing here might have a negative effect??
 

sws1

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Looking at this thread raises a question in my mind. Maybe you guys know the answer.

Now, looking at those mahogany dowels, that is the kind of detail you would never see unless you completely disassemble an instrument.

So you might think my question is "why bother" -it will (hopefully) never be seen. But that isn't my question (although I can understand someone asking that).

No, my question is who the hell is tearing real 59 Bursts to pieces in order to discover those things in the first place??

Another quick thought:

I'm sure Florian does a great job - but wouldn't it be easier for Gibson to supply a set of new parts to designated "Makeover Artists", in order that they don't have the disassembling issues?

An original 50's instrument had not been made, torn apart, and then made again.

We blame so many things for tiny changes in tone - perhaps the very process we are seeing here might have a negative effect??


I'm sure there have been many original bursts that, during repairs, allowed luthiers to understand how they were built. Neck have been removed. Fingerboards removed. etc. etc. This isn't guesswork. This is based on 50+ years of 50s guitars being repaired.
 

majorminor

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I'm sure there have been many original bursts that, during repairs, allowed luthiers to understand how they were built. Neck have been removed. Fingerboards removed. etc. etc. This isn't guesswork. This is based on 50+ years of 50s guitars being repaired.

Yes, I get that. But if you had the choice, would you rather have a damaged repaired 59, or a undamaged one? And would you pay more for the torn apart repaired one? That, effectively, is what is on offer here.

And has anyone done comparisons on before/after tone? Sure, the cork sniffers will say it's MORE accurate - even under the skin - but is it a better guitar to play? Does it sound better?

The problem here is that due to the way it happens, you are without the guitar for weeks, so no side-by-side comparison can ever be done.

Just like folks who buy expensive vitamin pills, the placebo effect will make your brain believe that the extra outlay of cash is beneficial.

But is it really?

Gibson must be fully aware of what these guys are doing - so, as I said, why not ask Gibson to not assemble your TH - just let them supply you all the parts - a win win situation - Gibson saves assembly costs, so makes more profit - and the "makeover" guy doesn't have to use all those chemicals and crowbars to take the thing to bits!

And the end user gets an instrument that has only been assembled ONCE....... just like a real 59...........:)
 

corpse

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Why the fuck is Gibson putting plastic locating buttons on their Flagship 'just like the original arm-and-a-leg' guitar?
That wasn't on pre TH models AFAIK?
 

Cream Fan

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Yes, I get that. But if you had the choice, would you rather have a damaged repaired 59, or a undamaged one? And would you pay more for the torn apart repaired one? That, effectively, is what is on offer here.

And has anyone done comparisons on before/after tone? Sure, the cork sniffers will say it's MORE accurate - even under the skin - but is it a better guitar to play? Does it sound better?

The problem here is that due to the way it happens, you are without the guitar for weeks, so no side-by-side comparison can ever be done.

Just like folks who buy expensive vitamin pills, the placebo effect will make your brain believe that the extra outlay of cash is beneficial.

But is it really?

Gibson must be fully aware of what these guys are doing - so, as I said, why not ask Gibson to not assemble your TH - just let them supply you all the parts - a win win situation - Gibson saves assembly costs, so makes more profit - and the "makeover" guy doesn't have to use all those chemicals and crowbars to take the thing to bits!

And the end user gets an instrument that has only been assembled ONCE....... just like a real 59...........:)

Gibson would never supply parts to luthiers rebuilding their products. It's ludicrous to even suggest that. In fact, it's because of luthiers like Florian and companies like Historic Makeovers that prompted Gibson to start reusing Hide Glue for attaching fretboards to necks and necks to bodies. They actually went a step too far by also hide gluing the maple tops, as Gibson used "Radio Glue" for that in the 50s, a glue that was cured by microwaves. Hide glue was used because it could be softened by low heat, so that repairmen could remove the necks and freboards, if necessary. It was a happy coincidence that dried, crystallized hide glue sounded so good, too. They used the radio glue on the tops because Gibson never imagined anyone would want to retop their guitars.

All the changes Gibson has instituted over the last couple of years has been in response to the Makeover phenomenon to recapture lost business. They were losing sales to people who instead of buying a new R8 or R9 were buying them used and having them made over.

As to whether a makeover plays and sounds better, that's an unqualified YES! My '03 R9, which was made over by Historic Makeovers, is far more resonant and more vocal than it was prior the makeover.
 

majorminor

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Gibson would never supply parts to luthiers rebuilding their products. It's ludicrous to even suggest that. .

Have it your way, my friend.

Ten years ago, the record companies would never allow their stuff to be downloaded - and vinyl was dead. And it was ludicrous to suggest otherwise.

Now, the music industry does very well, thankyou, from downloads (and have drastically reduced their manufacturing overhead), and vinyl is the fastest growing segment in retail music sales.

Give Gibson ten years, and they could well have appointed specialist luthiers offering personal TH service all over the world - for a Rolls Royce price tag, of course.

By doing that, they could well corner a large part of the profit line currently going to "makeover" businesses.

Why buy a factory produced instrument, when I can watch someone craft my made to measure TH from the ground up?

The companies succeeding in the twenty first century are the ones that innovate. Or they can just keep on doing what they've always done.........:spabout


y28LIF.jpg
 

Cream Fan

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With big box music stores in serious trouble because of the Internet, I think it is far more likely that within ten years, you'll be buying your Gibson direct from the factory. No more dealers. They'll either pass on the savings or add the dealer markup to their bottom line. Guess which one they'll do?
 

fred dons

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the music industry doing well??? from downloads ? spotify pays 0,0005 per stream to the record company, so a million streams would equal 5K, that is before all costs are deducted to record, marketing, video etc imagine how much the artist is making from this ?
 

sapi

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As to whether a makeover plays and sounds better, that's an unqualified YES! My '03 R9, which was made over by Historic Makeovers, is far more resonant and more vocal than it was prior the makeover.

Oh YES! Agreed! Day and night difference! My '07 R9 was always a great sounding guitar, after the HM it was off the charts! Nothing mysterious about this, the HM process works! :hank
 

El Gringo

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First off this is one of the most informative threads in a while .Major kudos to all the posters and for thinking about this subject in different ways than we normally do. A lot of fine points to think about?
 

Tim Plains

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Why buy a factory produced instrument, when I can watch someone craft my made to measure TH from the ground up?
Not knocking them but your ideas are a bit far fetched. How could Gibson offer a lifetime warranty on guitars made by third parties?

It's simple. If you want a modern Les Paul built from the ground up like in 1959, you buy a replica. Gibson can't and won't produce an exact copy.

Also, you can X-ray a burst to find some of these invisible details. No need to destroy it.
 

Pellman73

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what's happening today Orreman?!

BTW how long does a project like this take?

More pics? feed us!
 

corpse

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Kim at HM advised me that every guitar that have done uses the plastic locators on the neck- they too replace them with wood. I wonder how that improves the 'mass-production' process? Not much room for alignment error with such relatively small parts.
 

callaway_1

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Dec 22, 2005
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The skills of the luthiers doing these makeovers is far greater than the folks at Gibson assembling guitars.

It is hardly a case of some hack, tearing apart guitars.
 
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