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Current bursts for sale...

Tom Wittrock

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Apparently, it's a burst now. Wasn't its current owner arguing vociferously that it was a Goldtop back in the "2 bursts in Germany" thread?:hmm

Yes, as was pointed out recently in the older thread.
Was this just a ruse to get the guitar cheap?
1) Expert claims it isn't really a refin Burst, but instead a refin Goldtop. In doing so, a reputable dealer is raked over the coals for saying it was a refin Burst..
2) Expert buys/deals for it based on his expertise.
3) Expert resells it as a Burst.

This whole episode smells fishy. :wah
 

sws1

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Dec 4, 2001
Messages
2,846
Yes, as was pointed out recently in the older thread.
Was this just a ruse to get the guitar cheap?
1) Expert claims it isn't really a refin Burst, but instead a refin Goldtop. In doing so, a reputable dealer is raked over the coals for saying it was a refin Burst..
2) Expert buys/deals for it based on his expertise.
3) Expert resells it as a Burst.

This whole episode smells fishy. :wah

Maybe it’s really a lapsteel...per the ledger. 😉

I thought all the 58-60 ledgers were missing, or is it just some of them?
 

F-Hole

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Yes, as was pointed out recently in the older thread.
Was this just a ruse to get the guitar cheap?
1) Expert claims it isn't really a refin Burst, but instead a refin Goldtop. In doing so, a reputable dealer is raked over the coals for saying it was a refin Burst..
2) Expert buys/deals for it based on his expertise.
3) Expert resells it as a Burst.

This whole episode smells fishy. :wah



Detlef? Reputable?

Oh how we laughed. Sales of fake Marshall and authentication of fake Explorer just get lost in the long grass, again.....because Detlef is Tom's friend.

What a fucking joke.
 

CDaughtry

Les Paul Forum Co-Owner and Moderator
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John...we know your opinion on Detlef. What’s your opinion of this guitar now bring marketed as a burst when Eric insisted it was a Goldtop? Does that offend your notion of full disclosure?
 

F-Hole

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John...we know your opinion on Detlef. What’s your opinion of this guitar now bring marketed as a burst when Eric insisted it was a Goldtop? Does that offend your notion of full disclosure?

Charlie, as I stated ad nauseum (SWIDT) in the original thread.....I just don't know. I haven't seen the guitar, and in all probability I wouldn't be able to tell whether it's a GT or a 'burst.

Besides, it's not the absence of "full disclosure" that offends me, it's the blind hypocrisy.

Let's not pretend this is about "full disclosure". It's about old enmities coming to the surface again and people taking the opportunity to "take a shot" on any premise. Duke it out, it's all good. Eric's a big boy, he can fend for himself......but don't expect Tom not to be called out on the "blind spot" he has for his friend's, what shall we call them, "indiscretions".
 

CDaughtry

Les Paul Forum Co-Owner and Moderator
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This morning, Eric texted me and asked me "Charlie...what would you like me to disclose?"

Here's my answer:

Many consider Eric's opinion, on all things vintage, to be the gospel. In the Detlef bashing thread, despite many suggesting that this could have very well been a burst, Eric vehemently insisted it was a Goldtop. In that thread, it served his purposes, for the sake of the Detlef bashing, to say it was a Goldtop, because that made Detlef's "misrepresentations" to the kid more egregious.

Now...when Eric lists it for sale, he says "This might be the first opportunity some of you fellow guitar geeks might get at owning an elusive Burst. Since it is a refin., it will be less than half of the typical $250k+ entry fee!!!"

I take that to mean that it can be bought in the 100k to 125k range. That's mint Goldtop money, not a realistic price for a Goldtop that has been refinished 6 times.

To specifically answer his question of "What would you like me to disclose?" My answer is, advertise it as a refinned Goldtop (which was his adamant opinion). He could then say, "But I could be wrong, and if I am, and it started out as a burst, you're getting a good deal!"


Weren't we all demanding full and complete disclosure in the Detlef thread? Should the same not apply to Eric?
 

jimmi

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John...we know your opinion on Detlef. What’s your opinion of this guitar now bring marketed as a burst when Eric insisted it was a Goldtop? Does that offend your notion of full disclosure?
I just read the thread....seems he is pretty open about the history of the guitar including it being a suspected GT....admits that the ledgers have that serial number on a lap guitar meaning it may not be the real one. It has being called the "Conti Burst" for a while so in advertising it, seems he is just going with what people will recognize.

where is the problem (aside from Tom trying to settle a score and start a fight).?

From that thread " Prior to the last refinishing job by Kim, the guitar was noticed to have walnut pore filler in the mahogany.........So the guitar was thought to most likely be have originally been a Goldtop since the serial number is too low for a Burst"
 
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F-Hole

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.....the Detlef bashing thread.......

Charlie, honest response, do you think Detlef deserves "bashing" for:

1. selling an obviously fake "vintage" Marshall as being all original; and
2. "authenticating" a fake Explorer for one of his cabal, when he so clearly lacks the expertise to do so.

What you perjoritively describe as a "bashing" others would describe as a long overdue call-to-account.

Don't conflate Detlef's actions with Eric's. Address them separately by all means, but they are not one and the same.

Point me to where Eric has sold a fake and I'll concede the point.
 

CDaughtry

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Yes...I agree that anyone who is less than 100% honest in vintage deals should be called out. But it's curious how you are so black and white in the one instance, i.e. Detlef, and so gray in this one. I know Eric is your friend, and I know you've had nothing but good dealings with him, but shouldn't we all be striving for as close to 100% full disclosure as possible?:jim
 

Tim

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Jul 15, 2001
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He should edit his own post in the other forum then. This is what he posted:
Originally Posted by Eric Ernest
1. Original Goldtop.
2. Early 70's sunburst refin.
3. Early 80's Gibson factory (clown) sunburst refin around 1980 when it was renecked by the Kalamazoo factory with an NOS neck. (Work order done through Gruhn's.)
4. Early 2000's German sunburst done by one of Detlef's guys.
5. 2015 Swiss sunburst done by one of Gregory's guys.
6. 2017 a sunburst Historic Makeover refin.

On 2/1/18 Eric stated the above but by 2/7/18 he was questioning if it was a goldtop -

1. Original Goldtop?
2. Early 70's sunburst refin. Stupid burst pattern.
3. Late 70's Gibson factory (clown) sunburst refin around 1980 when it was renecked by the Kalamazoo factory with an NOS neck. (Work order done through Gruhn's.)
4. Early 2000's sunburst done by Mathias Schindehütte.
5. 2015 Mathias Schindehütte again at Gregory's request. (Very murky finish.)
6. 2017 a sunburst Historic Makeover refin. (Not painted as requested on work order. Walnut pore filler! WTF?)
 

jimmi

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Yes...I agree that anyone who is less than 100% honest in vintage deals should be called out. But it's curious how you are so black and white in the one instance, i.e. Detlef, and so gray in this one. I know Eric is your friend, and I know you've had nothing but good dealings with him, but shouldn't we all be striving for as close to 100% full disclosure as possible?:jim


I just quoted the thread in question where he states the guitar is suspected to be a possible refin GT. It has a celebrity connection which probably explains the price (Keith Urban sold his water logged '58 GT for around 100k for example).
 

Tom Wittrock

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Charlie, honest response, do you think Detlef deserves "bashing" for:

1. selling an obviously fake "vintage" Marshall as being all original; and
2. "authenticating" a fake Explorer for one of his cabal, when he so clearly lacks the expertise to do so.

He did not sell the Marshall. That's a lie continued by you and others.
And, there is no "cabal" as you say.

Now who's being dishonest? :rolleyes
 

jimmi

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He did not sell the Marshall. That's a lie continued by you and others.
And, there is no "cabal" as you say.

Now who's being dishonest? :rolleyes
My recollection was that the Marshall was part of the deal sold with the Conti guitar. Doesnt mater if it was a consignment. Then there is the issue of the explorer...
 

F-Hole

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He did not sell the Marshall. That's a lie continued by you and others.
And, there is no "cabal" as you say.

Now who's being dishonest? :rolleyes

Well, given you ask, it's you being dishonest Tom.

Detlef (GuitarPoint) issued a receipt for the Marshall sale, a copy of which has been posted to this site.

Next you'll be telling us that Detlef routinely issues receipts to customers for the sale of gear he doesn't own and hasn't sold.

Get real.
 

F-Hole

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But it's curious how you are so black and white in the one instance, i.e. Detlef, and so gray in this one.

I don't agree with your premise.

Go back to the original thread and re-read what I wrote. I stated that I don't know whether it's a GT or a 'burst. Said the same in this thread. What I did say is that having seen the "Marshall", for which Detlef provided a receipt, and the "authentication" of the fake Explorer, Detlef doesn't get the benefit of the doubt. The same would be true of any dealer. What particularly grates with Detlef is the BS on his website about people looking to acquire vintage pieces are safe with GuitarPoint because they have the expertise necessary to ensure they do not buy fakes. It's a masterpiece of post-satirical double-think.

I know Eric is your friend, and I know you've had nothing but good dealings with him, but shouldn't we all be striving for as close to 100% full disclosure as possible?:jim

Again, you're conflating two separate issues.

Eric and I are friendly, but not friends. We simply don't know each other well enough to be "friends". That's not intended to be disparaging, I have very few real friends, but I'm friendly with a lot of people, Eric included.

In answer, yes, we should be striving for as close to 100% disclosure as possible.
 

CDaughtry

Les Paul Forum Co-Owner and Moderator
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I don't agree with your premise.

Go back to the original thread and re-read what I wrote. I stated that I don't know whether it's a GT or a 'burst. Said the same in this thread.

I think that misses the point. It doesn't matter whether you think its a Goldtop or a burst, it matters what Eric thinks it is, and he pretty decisively thought it was a Goldtop in the other thread.


However, I will say this...if we were back in school and choosing sides on the debate team, I'd want you on my team. ;)
 

jimmi

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I think that misses the point. It doesn't matter whether you think its a Goldtop or a burst, it matters what Eric thinks it is, and he pretty decisively thought it was a Goldtop in the other thread.


However, I will say this...if we were back in school and choosing sides on the debate team, I'd want you on my team. ;)
There is more evidence now than when we discussed the guitar in that thread. We now see the serial number was recorded to a different instrument in the ledger (information provided by Eric I might add) which suggests it is not the real serial number to the guitar. Two peices of information raising the possibility of a refinished GT were an early number and brown filler. Neither were mentioned with the previous sale (along with unclear discrptions of replaced plastics) or maybe not even noticed. Both are discussed in Eric's thread along with the possible implications and possible explainations. Tell me, is there a real equivalence between the level of disclosure here?

I will wait until you respond to Marlow since you appear to be ignoring me.
 

F-Hole

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It doesn't matter whether you think its a Goldtop or a burst, it matters what Eric thinks it is, and he pretty decisively thought it was a Goldtop in the other thread.

I didn't take away that Eric was difinitive in his opinion.

I undersood him to have thought it was "very probably" a refinished GT.

As for "disclosure", you'd be hard pressed to find a guitar that's had more of its characteristics disclosed so publicly in such a short time.
 

jimmi

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Ironically, in an attempt to get at Eric, bringing this up in this manner only hurts GP as most that knew about this had forgotten. Now the issues with the Marshall and the Explorer are freshly discussed.
 
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