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1960 ES-345 - solution

Wally

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Doc, IF you want the out of phase relationship of the pickups in that guitar---as most stereo guitars' pickups are... then the solution would be to apply the effects to the Normal channel....voila! channels are in phase and the 345 into it would yield the out of phase sound when in the middle position. Or...if your guitar's pickups are in phase, then the results would be the big in phase sound.
 

DoctorDox

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Doc, IF you want the out of phase relationship of the pickups in that guitar---as most stereo guitars' pickups are... then the solution would be to apply the effects to the Normal channel....voila! channels are in phase and the 345 into it would yield the out of phase sound when in the middle position. Or...if your guitar's pickups are in phase, then the results would be the big in phase sound.
ugh, only problem THERE is, i want the fender reverb on the pickup with the effects haha
 

Wally

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ugh, only problem THERE is, i want the fender reverb on the pickup with the effects haha

That is the beauty of it, Doc. Applying the effects to the Normal channel is what puts the two channels in phase because that Vibrato Ch has one more gain stage in it in the Reverb recovery circuit. versus only two gain stages in the Normal Ch preamp circuit. When the reverb is applied to the Normal channel, that establishes three preamp gain stages in both channels.
 

DoctorDox

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That is the beauty of it, Doc. Applying the effects to the Normal channel is what puts the two channels in phase because that Vibrato Ch has one more gain stage in it in the Reverb recovery circuit. versus only two gain stages in the Normal Ch preamp circuit. When the reverb is applied to the Normal channel, that establishes three preamp gain stages in both channels.
now wait, i can still get reverb on the normal non vibrato side of the amp? I thought I couldnt. I tried that last week but there was nothing. now i guess if im using my guitar in the middle position then id be okay. I also never pllug in there so as long as I can get reverb, im fine. I dont do much with vibrato unless im by myself, doing bad Ry Cooder impressions

l
 

DoctorDox

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That is the beauty of it, Doc. Applying the effects to the Normal channel is what puts the two channels in phase because that Vibrato Ch has one more gain stage in it in the Reverb recovery circuit. versus only two gain stages in the Normal Ch preamp circuit. When the reverb is applied to the Normal channel, that establishes three preamp gain stages in both channels.
or are you saying, mod the super reverb to get reverb on the normal channel?
 

Wally

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Yes, Doc....the effects can be applied to that Normal channel which adds a third gain stage to that channel which brings the two channels in phase. Then..plug in a stereo Gibson with OOP pickups--one to each channel of that SR or any other two channel reverb Fender that can be modded this way--- and the middle position on the selector switch on the guitar will give you both channels, each with a signal that is OOP to the other...voila...the two pickups together are less powerful, more articulate, and brighter together than if they were in phase. Some famous Les Paul was wired this way....OOP. I sometimes wonder if that player had heard a stereo Gibson and liked that OOP middle position????
 

DoctorDox

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For the record, heres a picture of my two.

1960 ES 345 Stereo, factory hardtail.
1970 335.

34200948_10213475588337837_4113218603749212160_n.jpg
 

DoctorDox

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Yes, Doc....the effects can be applied to that Normal channel which adds a third gain stage to that channel which brings the two channels in phase. Then..plug in a stereo Gibson with OOP pickups--one to each channel of that SR or any other two channel reverb Fender that can be modded this way--- and the middle position on the selector switch on the guitar will give you both channels, each with a signal that is OOP to the other...voila...the two pickups together are less powerful, more articulate, and brighter together than if they were in phase. Some famous Les Paul was wired this way....OOP. I sometimes wonder if that player had heard a stereo Gibson and liked that OOP middle position????
Okay I got you, im going to start planning this mod, or take it to a friend. Im definitely frustrated with it overall, just havent got it situated with my rig yet. First time in 12 months that ive missed my blues breakers marshall
 

Wally

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Doc, one or both of those channels can be revoiced during the process to yield a hotter channel that exhibits less of a mid-scoop. I like to do this for versatility. However, if one wants to run a 345 in stereo, the two channels need to as much alike as possible, imho. So, IF one liked that middier, hotter thing that the 5F6A/Marshall Blues Breaker circuit does, both channels could be taken in that direction.
My '66 is like a blend of your two guitars....beautiful cherry red with a trapeze tailpi3ce.
 

johnnyslim

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Oct 4, 2001
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Yank the varitone and thank me later.:jim

What Charlie said. I got a 1961 ES-345 that sounded great. I tried a single cable that would hit both notches in the jack to "make it mono". It worked but in the end I pulled the varitone out. Just let me say...those 1961 PAF's became completely different animals with the varitone out.
 

jackdonovan

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Mar 18, 2003
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The box solution to the middle position both pickups together on an 1959 60 es 345 is an interesting idea.. The y cable is cumbersome and probably not the best way to do stereo. Instead it's possible to have one stereo to stereo cable and with an option to select mono or stereo in phase or out of phase.

Maybe someone post a diagram showing how we can wire a stereo output lead to stereo input jack to a box with a phase switch that electrically reverses one pickup so as to you having a choice of in phase or out of phase sound in middle position without the need to mess around reversing magnets and locking you to in or out of phase choice. Does this make sense or is it gobbledegook?
 

RAB

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Very sharp guitar you have there, 57Gold.

Yup, just had the same Varitonectomy performed on my First Rack 1959 ES-345T. Similarly, the zebra PAFs now perform to their full potential in addition to guitar weight loss! Cheers! RAB :hank
 

DoctorDox

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So I was having a jack issue with my 1960 345. So I took it into the shop and ended Up having to get a bunch of stuff rewired due to massive wire deterioration. Anyways, the varitone is REMOVED now but still out of phase in the middle. So upon taking it home, i plugged her on up and man she sounds great. I feel like there is less coloring off my tone. I’ll know more Friday after band practice but I do notice a difference without the varitone hooked up. It’s really great, and it’s a pound lighter. Also got it setup and now there’s way more sustain too. I’d say with a good setup, and the varitone being removed, my 345 feels way different and sounds better.

The varitone I do like but found I wasn’t using it much. So I put a push pull pot on one of the tones and it’s hooked up for putting it back in phase when engaged. But there’s a buzz on that setting which is no big deal.

Varitone is great but I do notice a difference without it.
 
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Wally

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So I was having a jack issue with my 1960 345. So I took it into the shop and ended. Up having to get a bunch of stuff rewired due to massive wore deterioration. Anyways, y varitone is REMOVED now but still out of phase in the middle. So upon taking it home, i plugged her on up and man she sounds great. I feel like there is less coloring off my tone. I’ll know more Friday after band practice but I do notice a difference without the varitone hooked up. It’s resllt great, and it’s a pound lighter. Also got it setup and now there’s way more sustain too. I’d say with a good setup, a d the varitone being removed, my 345 feels way different and sounds better.

The varitone I do like but found I wasn’t using it much. So I put a push pull pot on one of the tones and it’s hooked up for putting it back in phase when engaged. But there’s a buzz on that setting which is no big deal.

Varitoe is great but I do notice a difference without it.

Regarding that phase switch......if they did not remove the cover from the pickup for which that switch is flipping the leads, then that is the source of your noise. The cover has to be removed and the connection of that one lead that is connected to the braided shield needs to be separated from the braided shield. The shield goes to ground while those two leads go to that switch.
 

DoctorDox

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Regarding that phase switch......if they did not remove the cover from the pickup for which that switch is flipping the leads, then that is the source of your noise. The cover has to be removed and the connection of that one lead that is connected to the braided shield needs to be separated from the braided shield. The shield goes to ground while those two leads go to that switch.
Makes sense, im not too concerned because knocking the middle back into phase isnt really what I look for. I love the out of phase middle so im totally content. Is that something that would be basically tearing the PAF apart? If so id probably leave that to Joe Glaser in nashville. How hard of an operation is this?
 

Wally

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Dox, yes, the cover has to be taken off in order to get to the connecti9n for the winding from the braid. A wire has to be added to that end of the winding. That way, the shield ground is separated from the winding and one can treat the winding as needed. I personally would not do this to an intact PAF......and B.B. King for one used that OOP position to great effect. And Greenie was modded to yield the same thing....so some folks like OOP. Fwiw, Gibson is using OOP middle position in many of their recent guitars, ime.
 

zombiwoof

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Blackface or silverface Fenders are out-of-phase between the two channels - you could do what you're trying on a tweed, but not a Super Reverb.

Stereo to mono will cause tone suck, as you found. You're essentially creating a stereo-to-mono mixer without the resistor network mixing consoles use.

Check that your stereo-to-Y isn't a headphone (three-conductor to three-conductor) splitter, just to make sure. If it is stereo to two x mono, you could try opening up the cable and swapping the two hot leads so you'd have the outputs from the guitar out-of-phase, then you might be able to use it in two channels of the SR.

A nice 345 is one of the few guitars that still gets me wanting. But if I got one, the Varitone would come out immediately. Some people love them, but for everybody else... :dang
One note: Only the BF/SF reverb Fender amps have the channels out of phase. The amps without reverb have channels in phase.
Al
 

DoctorDox

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Dox, yes, the cover has to be taken off in order to get to the connecti9n for the winding from the braid. A wire has to be added to that end of the winding. That way, the shield ground is separated from the winding and one can treat the winding as needed. I personally would not do this to an intact PAF......and B.B. King for one used that OOP position to great effect. And Greenie was modded to yield the same thing....so some folks like OOP. Fwiw, Gibson is using OOP middle position in many of their recent guitars, ime.
Yeah the guitars too nice to tear apart a PAF for no reason, I literally used the OOP probably 85% of the time or more so IM pretty content.
 

Wally

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One note: Only the BF/SF reverb Fender amps have the channels out of phase. The amps without reverb have channels in phase.
Al

Al, fwiw there are other Fender amps that have the channels out of phase. The AA864 and AA165 BAssman amps for instance. Both of these amps have 3 gain stages in the BAss channel and two gain stages in the Normal channel. The AB165 BAssman and all later BAssman amps have equal numbers of gain stages in each channel....and the channels thereby are in phase.
Somewhere back in my GP mags there is an article detailing a slight mod to deal with the problem the stereo rigs have when running in mono. IT is the simple moving of one resistor from one place in the circuit to another, iirc.
 
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