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  1. #1
    Les Paul Forum Member seishin's Avatar
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    who prefers grovers over klusons and why?

    i am comtemplating changing out the stock Kluson tuning gears (gibson deluxe) on my Lester for some Grovers and thought i would get a consensus from our esteemed members as to if it is worth the effort and expense ...

  2. #2
    Les Paul Forum Member Mainah's Avatar
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    Re: who prefers grovers over klusons and why?

    Count me in as preferring the Grovers. It's probably as much a matter of aesthetics as anything (I love the way they look), but there's no denying that the new 18:1 Rotomatics are a lot "smoother" than the stock Grover-made Gibson Deluxe tuners. That, combined with my distaste for the appearance of plastic tuning keys, was enough to make me want to switch. FWIW, on the two LP Deluxe reissues that I installed the Rotomatics on, they were a drop-in fit (no drilling or reaming required). I also had no problems with the appearance of the unused upper set screw holes that were left exposed with the Rotomatics in place (looks old school). ;)
    ...and then the old bull said "No son, let's walk down the hill and fuck all of 'em."

  3. #3
    Banned led zep fan's Avatar
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    Re: who prefers grovers over klusons and why?

    I too prefer Grovers to the RI Klusons, but I like the older Grovers, from the 70's era. I haven't quite yet swapped my klusons for grovers on my R8 because I haven't really found the right ones yet.

  4. #4

    Re: who prefers grovers over klusons and why?

    i like the grovers more as well, the only reason i would see that you would want to change was for an appearance thing, beacuse a properly setup guitar will not get out of tune.

  5. #5
    Les Paul Forum Member gitRhero's Avatar
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    Re: who prefers grovers over klusons and why?

    Grovers look much better IMHO.
    And they work better of course....


  6. #6
    Formerly markeymark Markster's Avatar
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    Re: who prefers grovers over klusons and why?

    Grovers! :yay
    "The angle of the dangle is inversely proportional to the heat of the beat."

  7. #7
    Les Paul Forum Member Big Al's Avatar
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    Re: who prefers grovers over klusons and why?

    IMO they improve utility and tone.
    The older I get, the better I was.

  8. #8
    Les Paul Forum Member seishin's Avatar
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    Re: who prefers grovers over klusons and why?

    has anyone routed out the headstck ones for grovers, then wanted to go back to klusons ...?

  9. #9
    Formerly markeymark Markster's Avatar
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    Re: who prefers grovers over klusons and why?

    Quote Originally Posted by seishin
    has anyone routed out the headstck ones for grovers, then wanted to go back to klusons ...?
    All parts sells bushings for that. I'd never switch back, but I quit saying: "Never say never."
    "The angle of the dangle is inversely proportional to the heat of the beat."

  10. #10
    Les Paul Forum Member Gold Tone's Avatar
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    Re: who prefers grovers over klusons and why?

    There are conversion bushings all over the place but they all have that horrible wide edge. Its loks clownish.

    DMC used to have the conversion bushings with the proper, cool, narrow slanted edge. Don't think you can get those anymore. I know Steve at Pigtail has the right ones now as well..........I think he is the only one.

  11. #11
    Les Paul Forum Member fretwire's Avatar
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    Re: who prefers grovers over klusons and why?

    I've seen where Grover has a "Vintage Series" tuner that has the same case and footprint as the old Klusons, has a 14:1 ratio, and comes with plastic or metal keys. Has anyone tried these? Are they more stable than the Klusons or are they basically the same animal?

    "Real amps glow in the dark."

  12. #12

    Re: who prefers grovers over klusons and why?

    It sounds like you are talking about the Grover Vintage Deluxe 136 series. I was going to buy a set of those for a new Standard I picked up. Roy at RS told me that they had a wider post, and drilling was required. Not wanting to do any drilling on my new git, I decided not to get them. He then told me that Gotoh has a set coming out soon that is a direct replacement for the Gibson Deluxe tuners, but that they come in nickel.

  13. #13
    Les Paul Forum Member Heritage 80's Avatar
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    Re: who prefers grovers over klusons and why?

    Put me down for Grovers. I like the feel of the "kidney beans" as well as the (to me) smoother action.
    ____________________________________________
    “Honesty may be the best policy, but it’s important to remember that apparently, by elimination, dishonesty is the second-best policy.” – George Carlin

  14. #14

    Re: who prefers grovers over klusons and why?

    I love Grovers, too, but be warned, they will also add about a quarter pound to the weight of your guitar.

  15. #15
    Les Paul Forum Member moonweasel's Avatar
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    Re: who prefers grovers over klusons and why?

    I love the function of Grovers but hate the look and weight. My 59 jr has them, and they make using a strap a little annoying. They are so bulky.

    Ive said it before, having Grovers on a Les Paul is like a pretty girl with braces.

  16. #16
    Les Paul Forum Member Joe Ganzler's Avatar
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    Re: who prefers grovers over klusons and why?

    Time for the Ganz to "weigh in" on this topic, no pun intended! Stock Klusons (at least the old originals) WITH bushings and screws weigh exactly 5.5 oz. The "new" Grovers with same weigh 9.75 oz. Vintage '58-'62 era Grovers, which are smaller in EVERY direction, weigh exactly 9.0 oz. for a 3.5 oz. increase in weight. The old Grovers (Pat. Pending/USA) are beautiful little machines - each one is like a piece of jewelry! The castings are sharp and well-defined; whatever they're made of emits a luscious sonic "tink" when tapped, vs. the dead "thunk" that the new POS reissue Grovers make. I upgraded my '01 R8 Authentic with the vintage Grovers - not only do they LOOK so much better, since they're scaled down in every direction, but they certainly seemed to add something sonically over the reissue Grovers. Not sure if I would have removed Klusons to add them, but since my Historic already was set up for them (Stock on '01 R8 Authentics) I'm glad to have upgraded to vintage. They're kinda hard to come by, as I think most of 'em got shitcanned in the '90's, when everyone went BACK to Klusons. Here's a headstock shot, and the requisite "money shot" - to preanswer the questions, those are Timbucker Zebras, original gold bonnet knobs, and DMC switchring/crown nut/original switch tip, and "mystery/UK p'up rings:


    Last edited by Joe Ganzler; 02-13-05 at 08:37 PM.
    "If you're lucky enough to live at the beach, then you're lucky enough..."

  17. #17

    Re: who prefers grovers over klusons and why?

    [QUOTE=Mainah]but there's no denying that the new 18:1 Rotomatics are a lot "smoother" than the stock Grover-made Gibson Deluxe tuners.

    actually, the stock "gibson delux" are gotoh... :bonk

  18. #18
    Les Paul Forum Member Mainah's Avatar
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    Re: who prefers grovers over klusons and why?

    Quote Originally Posted by fiddleback
    actually, the stock "gibson delux" are gotoh... :bonk
    Well, that's certainly possible, but I've heard from people far more knowledgeable than myself on the issue that the current Gibson Deluxe tuners are actually Grover Vintage 135 Series. Just so we're on the same page, I'm talking about the Kluson-style tuners as found on Standards, Classics, etc. with the 10mm screw-in bushings. It certainly seemed reasonable to me that Gibson would go that route, as they also use Grover Rotomatics on Customs, 335s, and several other models. I would welcome definitive proof either way from anyone who can provide it. :wha

    Ganz--that has got to be the nicest top of any '01 R8 Authentic I have ever seen! Please do drop me a line if you ever consider parting with it... :ahem
    Last edited by Mainah; 02-13-05 at 09:40 PM.
    ...and then the old bull said "No son, let's walk down the hill and fuck all of 'em."

  19. #19
    Les Paul Forum Member
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    Re: who prefers grovers over klusons and why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Ganzler
    . They're kinda hard to come by, as I think most of 'em got shitcanned in the '90's, when everyone went BACK to Klusons. ]

    Not everyone. I'm happy to buy old guitars with Grovers because that's how I prefer them. I'm not going to route out any old guitars for them (like I used to) but I'm not switching any of the converted ones back to Klusons.

    PRO players, guys who actually use their instruments to make their living have already voted. Look at the pictures; the vast majority who play Gibsons were using GROVERS and SCHALLERS. They weren't hoodwinked, they understood that BETTER tuners make for a more comfortable and relaxed gig.

    When you're on the bandstand and you need to tune up, most players prefer the BEST tuning machines, with the smoothest action, high ratio, better machining and better overall quality. Who wants to fight a fidgety slipping low-ratio tuner? Not me.

    The only issue is with neck heavy guitars (some SGs) where a little extra weight on the stock actually tips the balance. With LPs, ES guitars, Jazz guitars (ever try to tune a HEAVY jazz strings with crappy tuners? NOT fun!) it's not a problem.

    Oh, one more issue: FUNCTIONALITY over time. Compare a set of 40 year old Klusons with a set of 40 year old Grovers. Guess which set actually STILL WORKS (with NO maintenance).

  20. #20
    Administrator MikeSlub's Avatar
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    Re: who prefers grovers over klusons and why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Ganzler
    Here's a headstock shot, and the requisite "money shot" - to preanswer the questions, those are Timbucker Zebras, original gold bonnet knobs, and DMC switchring/crown nut/original switch tip, and "mystery/UK p'up rings:


    Hey Joe - an AWESOME guitar! Thanks for sharing the pictures! :dude
    Mike Slubowski

    * "Gibson guitars are like potato chips - you can't have just one!"

    * "So many Gibsons to love, so little time..."

  21. #21
    Les Paul Forum Member Don's Avatar
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    Re: who prefers grovers over klusons and why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Litcrit
    Oh, one more issue: FUNCTIONALITY over time. Compare a set of 40 year old Klusons with a set of 40 year old Grovers. Guess which set actually STILL WORKS (with NO maintenance).
    The 48 year old Klusons on my Strat work fine. Even with tremolo use.
    The low ratio is a bit of a pain though. They're a bit tougher to fine tune than new tuners.

  22. #22
    Les Paul Forum Member
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    Re: who prefers grovers over klusons and why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Don
    The 48 year old Klusons on my Strat work fine. Even with tremolo use.
    The low ratio is a bit of a pain though. They're a bit tougher to fine tune than new tuners.
    I don't know why (straight string pull? Less headstock angle?) but Klusons on Fenders seem to work better than on Gibsons. I would guess that fewer Strat/Tele players changed the tuners from stock on the old guitars, at least it seems that way from my observations. Almost rare to find an old Gibson that's been PLAYED with stock tuners on it. I just bought a beautiful '51 ES 350 with stock tuners and those old Klusons were basically frozen. I tried lubricating them, but not much happened. With 13's, those were not turning, so I put on a newer set of Klusons (same holes), but I would not have minded if this came with some nice old Grovers............

  23. #23

    Re: who prefers grovers over klusons and why?

    I have the standard chrome/nickel Kluson on my LP STD LE. As long as you string your guitar properly, overlapping the tail of the string so it doesn't slip out of tune, Klusons are fine. Personally I hate the look of the green plastic keys and won't buy a Gibson with them on it. People customize their guitars in many ways so what ever pleases you the most with your guitar, do it unless you plan on selling it in the future. I buy only stock guitars with original cases but that's only my preference. Later.

  24. #24
    Les Paul Forum Member
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    Re: who prefers grovers over klusons and why?

    I am thinking about changing the Klusons on my 04R9, but I am doubtfull about the screw holes that will be visible then. Is it possible to switch to Grover/Schaller style tuners without having the screw holes visible?

    Mathijs

  25. #25

    Re: who prefers grovers over klusons and why?

    Joe: Can you tell me if old Grovers would still necessitate reaming stock Kluson holes to fit the Grover shaft? Thanks.

  26. #26
    Les Paul Forum Member Werloc's Avatar
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    Re: who prefers grovers over klusons and why?

    Quote Originally Posted by led zep fan
    I too prefer Grovers to the RI Klusons, but I like the older Grovers, from the 70's era. I haven't quite yet swapped my klusons for grovers on my R8 because I haven't really found the right ones yet.

    BINGO...!!! You nailed it....
    I'd rather be PISSED OFF, than PISSED ON..!!

  27. #27
    Les Paul Froum Member
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    Re: who prefers grovers over klusons and why?

    If you have push-in bushing with your Klusons, then you have to drill, if they are screw in bushings then Grovers fit with no mod. The post "made in USA" rotomatics are 14 or 18:1, the older ones (which I prefer for other reasons) are USUALLY only 12:1. Everything being equal the higher ratios are better, BUT the older ones are better tone-wise and look cooler! The ratio isn't the only thing to consider. Yes a well set up Les Paul will stay in tune with Klusons OR Grovers, but the Grovers have a more predictable machine action, less backlash, and look and sound better. If I am not concerned about resale, I drill for Grovers if I have to, to use them. Grover makes a 18:1 Kluson style tuner too, which are damned good, but not as good as even the old 12:1 Rotomatics!!!! WHEW!!

  28. #28
    Banned led zep fan's Avatar
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    Re: who prefers grovers over klusons and why?

    This is close, except for the one...

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...301805224&rd=1

  29. #29
    Les Paul Forum Member
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    Re: who prefers grovers over klusons and why?

    I prefer Grovers on my electrics that are not neck heavy. I prefer the smoother action and knobs are easier to turn because they are larger than the Klusons. The plastic tulip Kluson tuners are too small for my fingers.

    Ken

  30. #30
    Les Paul Forum Member Joe Ganzler's Avatar
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    Re: who prefers grovers over klusons and why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cream Fan
    Joe: Can you tell me if old Grovers would still necessitate reaming stock Kluson holes to fit the Grover shaft? Thanks.
    If you're replacing "push-in" bushing Klusons, then yes, there will be some hole enlargement necessary with even the older Grovers, though not as MUCH as with the newer ones. . .If you're replacing "screw-in" bushing Klusons, it should be an "R&R". . . :dude
    "If you're lucky enough to live at the beach, then you're lucky enough..."

  31. #31

    Re: who prefers grovers over klusons and why?

    Keep the Klusons. If you do switch make sure the finish is well cured. I have had two new guitars where the nitro lifted by the washer. Both came with Grovers stock.

  32. #32
    mtndon
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    Re: who prefers grovers over klusons and why?

    Joe, I have a set of looks like chrome grovers that was pulled of a 67 martin.
    They look very close to what is on your LP. Is there much difference? The ones I own have the pat. pending/made in the USA on them.

  33. #33
    Les Paul Forum Member seishin's Avatar
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    Re: who prefers grovers over klusons and why?

    finally made the "change" here is a pic, i am quite happy with the results, nice solid feel, and i may actually hear more sustain, ....

  34. #34
    Les Paul Forum Member Joe Ganzler's Avatar
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    Re: who prefers grovers over klusons and why?

    Quote Originally Posted by mtndon
    Joe, I have a set of looks like chrome grovers that was pulled of a 67 martin.
    They look very close to what is on your LP. Is there much difference? The ones I own have the pat. pending/made in the USA on them.
    Well, could be the same, could be different. Are you sure they're chrome and not nickel? Just a question, they could just as easily be one or the other. Also, is the Pat. Pending and USA as deeply stamped as on mine? The later ones are more lightly stamped. Finally, check and compare the front washer - the "good" ones have a very small washer, without the beveled edge above (like mine). . .
    "If you're lucky enough to live at the beach, then you're lucky enough..."

  35. #35

    Re: who prefers grovers over klusons and why?

    I think Grovers are better in every way...

  36. #36

    Re: who prefers grovers over klusons and why?

    Hey, Joe, how about a nice close-up picture of those small, non-beveled washers? Thanks in advance.

  37. #37
    Les Paul Forum Member Joe Ganzler's Avatar
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    Re: who prefers grovers over klusons and why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cream Fan
    Hey, Joe, how about a nice close-up picture of those small, non-beveled washers? Thanks in advance.
    Your wish is my (albeit belated) command! I'm having problems with my cocksucking digital camera, after 45 minutes, this was the best I could do:
    "If you're lucky enough to live at the beach, then you're lucky enough..."

  38. #38
    Les Paul Forum Member seishin's Avatar
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    Re: who prefers grovers over klusons and why?

    well, i may be without class and beveled but the pic is sharp, hah ....

  39. #39

    Re: who prefers grovers over klusons and why?

    Nice move switching to the Grovers, and try some of that Big Bends nut sauce for the nut. It really helps the hanging up at the nut from the angle from the tuning keys, since it`s not a straight pull headstock. There`s other stuff too that maybe others can chime in on, but IMHO graphite doesn`t hold a candle to the Big Bends or some of the others. Nice axe, and the keys look great!
    "I think the Eagle`s right wing is broken."

  40. #40
    Les Paul Forum Member seishin's Avatar
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    Re: who prefers grovers over klusons and why?

    Quote Originally Posted by classic-rock
    Nice move switching to the Grovers, and try some of that Big Bends nut sauce for the nut. It really helps the hanging up at the nut from the angle from the tuning keys, since it`s not a straight pull headstock. There`s other stuff too that maybe others can chime in on, but IMHO graphite doesn`t hold a candle to the Big Bends or some of the others. Nice axe, and the keys look great!
    thanks, i have to do a double take everytime i see the Lester on the stand and smile, Big Bends nut sauce ? where in the fongu do i find that ? just realized , were you responding to Ganzler ...?
    here is a full shot

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