could YOU ever consider choosing a Tokai Love Rock LS320 in preference to a Historic

greg-delta said:

the replicas are of a better quality for a fraction of the price.

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Is price the only criteria on what's actually best ? Or is it tone ?

El Gringo said:

Is price the only criteria on what's actually best ? Or is it tone ?

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you can make any guitar sound like anything. tone is the last thing I pay attention to when I buy a guitar, because tone is so easily changed with EQ, new pickups or whatever.

Tone is not something I pay for. My biggest things with cost are build quality and feel (and a little bit looks). if a guitar sounds "bad" a little amp or pedal tweaking or new pickups is easy neough

Price is not a criteria on what is best, that's not what I'm trying to say.

I'm saying if I have 2 identical products, and product A is 1/4 the cost of product B, the choice should be obvious on which is the better buy

Now in this specific instance, this tokai vs a gibson, I think paying this much for a normal, run of the mill production guitar is lunacy, so I don't think either is a particularly good idea (like I said, diminishing returns, imo)

The les paul is (mostly) a great design, if I can get it for 1100 instead of 4400, I'm going to take that deal every time.

You should probably know the cost of an LS-320 before you make incorrect claims. This post was started in 2004.

It's 2020, you can get a good used Historic at comparable prices to the highest end Tokai models (long t, solid flame top, 1 piece back, lacquer etc), used and vintage.

greg-delta said:

you can make any guitar sound like anything. tone is the last thing I pay attention to when I buy a guitar, because tone is so easily changed with EQ, new pickups or whatever.

Tone is not something I pay for. My biggest things with cost are build quality and feel (and a little bit looks). if a guitar sounds "bad" a little amp or pedal tweaking or new pickups is easy neough

Price is not a criteria on what is best, that's not what I'm trying to say.

I'm saying if I have 2 identical products, and product A is 1/4 the cost of product B, the choice should be obvious on which is the better buy

Now in this specific instance, this tokai vs a gibson, I think paying this much for a normal, run of the mill production guitar is lunacy, so I don't think either is a particularly good idea (like I said, diminishing returns, imo)

The les paul is (mostly) a great design, if I can get it for 1100 instead of 4400, I'm going to take that deal every time.

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I think Price point is one aspect , tone is another , and looks is a factor as well . With Les Paul's there are top hunters that seek out certain kinds of figuring and color . With tone if you have been playing for a # years you get an ear for it as to what sounds good to your ears and what doesn't .For instance - weight relieved Les Paul's ,where I learned there is a certain type of tone that I can only describe as a shrill type of sound that doesn't sound good to my ears at least . It makes a difference . Yes you can change pickups, wiring harness and get different results and use effects pedals and processors to change the sound . Also there are duds out there and such , so there's that as well . one doesn't make the other better just different . You say tone is not something you look for , you also say build quality and feel , if a guitar sounds "bad" a little amp or pedal tweaking or new pickups is easy enough - your words . My question to that sentiment would be if it sounds bad why would you want to pay for it ? That's sort of like making a blanket statement because of the cost of a Gibson USA Les Paul or a Gibson Custom Shop Les Paul -the cost doesn't justify the purchase as it's too expensive and over priced . . Why would you want to buy and pay for an instrument that doesn't sound good ? When that will wind up costing you more money ? That doesn't make sense . Also isn't build quality and feel part of the tone equation ? If a guitar is well built doesn't that make good tone ?

deytookerjaabs said:

You should probably know the cost of an LS-320 before you make incorrect claims. This post was started in 2004.

It's 2020, you can get a good used Historic at comparable prices to the highest end Tokai models (long t, solid flame top, 1 piece back, lacquer etc), used and vintage.

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I'm aware of the price, I hit up reverb. It was around 3200 USD or something. it's senseless to pay that for any run of the mill standard production guitar. I wouldn't pay that much if Peter Green himself played it

El Gringo said:

My question to that sentiment would be if it sounds bad why would you want to pay for it ? That's sort of like making a blanket statement because of the cost of a Gibson USA Les Paul or a Gibson Custom Shop Les Paul -the cost doesn't justify the purchase as it's too expensive and over priced . . Why would you want to buy and pay for an instrument that doesn't sound good ?

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because it looks and/or feels good.

When that will wind up costing you more money ? That doesn't make sense

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.

sure it does. if a guitar feels or looks exceptionally nice (and the price isn't insane) chances are I'll buy it regardless of how it sounds. ~$100 pickup change is kind of a "nominal fee".

Also isn't build quality and feel part of the tone equation ? If a guitar is well built doesn't that make good tone ?

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no

greg-delta said:

because it looks and/or feels good.

.

sure it does. if a guitar feels or looks exceptionally nice (and the price isn't insane) chances are I'll buy it regardless of how it sounds. ~$100 pickup change is kind of a "nominal fee".



no

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To put a nice ribbon and bow on this topic I will conclude with -you get what you pay for .

El Gringo said:

To put a nice ribbon and bow on this topic I will conclude with -you get what you pay for .

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sometimes...there's also the phrase "diminishing returns" and "a fool and his money are soon parted"

some magnets, wire and wood is not worth $3000...

greg-delta said:

sometimes...there's also the phrase "diminishing returns" and "a fool and his money are soon parted"

some magnets, wire and wood is not worth $3000...

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Well why don't you plug one of your Tokai guitars in and record us some that killer Les Paul tone you're getting. Show us Les Paul fans how great those Tokais are.

rockabilly69 said:

Well why don't you plug one of your Tokai guitars in and record us some that killer Les Paul tone you're getting.

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The primary, probably the only reason, is because I don't own any tokais at the moment. I've got an edwards and a greco and another Greco on the way

Though I don't think you'd like my tone, for 2 main reasons. One, it's probably it bit too modernist for most on this forum. not that it's good or bad, it's just this forum has a very traditionalist bent to it, and high distortion guitars with synthesizers and drum machines is probably like poison to most here. But the 2nd reason is you seem to have a big chip on your shoulder, which will likely color your opinion of my music

I don't know the rules on posting links to personal music here, but I gladly will post it in the next response here if it's allowed....i'm on spotify or bandcamp if thats more to your liking

Show us Les Paul fans how great those Tokais are.

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US les paul fans? I'm a les paul fan too guy, I just prefer the replicas to Gibsons...time and time again the japanese replicas have proven their worth...Gibsons have yet to live up to the hype I hear/read about them, or performed well enough to justify their massive price tags.

greg-delta said:

The primary, probably the only reason, is because I don't own any tokais at the moment. I've got an edwards and a greco and another Greco on the way

Though I don't think you'd like my tone, for 2 main reasons. One, it's probably it bit too modernist for most on this forum. not that it's good or bad, it's just this forum has a very traditionalist bent to it, and high distortion guitars with synthesizers and drum machines is probably like poison to most here. But the 2nd reason is you seem to have a big chip on your shoulder, which will likely color your opinion of my music

I don't know the rules on posting links to personal music here, but I gladly will post it in the next response here if it's allowed....i'm on spotify or bandcamp if thats more to your liking




US les paul fans? I'm a les paul fan too guy, I just prefer the replicas to Gibsons...time and time again the japanese replicas have proven their worth...Gibsons have yet to live up to the hype I hear/read about them, or performed well enough to justify their massive price tags.

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First off I don't have a chip on my shoulder. I just massively disagree with you inflated opinion of Tokai guitars, as although I have played some nice replicas, I haven't heard any that can compare to the cream of the crop Historic custom shop. I also think you should refer to any replica of a Les Paul by any name other than LES PAUL, I don't even mind "Les Paul Replica", and you posting in the historic Gibson section to spout your opinion was distasteful to say the least. I don't even refer to my Heritage guitars as Les Pauls and mine were built by some of the same guys that made the originals, with nice lacquer finishes, eastern maple tops, and Honduran mahogany backs and necks. I love them, and If I couldn't afford a custom shop LP I would buy these used for LESS than what you could buy a top of the line Greco for...

https://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/showthread.php?215047-My-Heritage-Guitars

I repaired guitars as part of my income when I first quit my day job in pursuit of my dream to become a full-time musician. Although I was very successful at repairing guitars, and considered that as a vocation, I eventually got too many gigs, and the music business took over (I'm still a full-time musician although things almost came to a stand-still with COVID19). But while repairing and modding guitars, along with working on many USA built instruments, I saw and worked on most every level of Tokai, Greco, Ibanez and most every other Japanese knockoff you can imagine. I even own 4 Zemaitis replica guitars that were manufactured by Greco (although I modded the shit out of them), and three Japanese built Gretsch guitars, so I have no prejudice to country of origin and I know what Japanese quality is about. But Les Pauls are my favorite guitars, and I've yet to hear a replica that would change my opinion of that. Yes, at the top of the line "some replicas" could hang when I gutted them electronically and put in proper pickups and associated electronics, but as a whole they very rarely hung with any good Les Paul that I own or have owned for playing the vintage style music that I play. And your statement of that you don't buy tone, because you can make any guitar sound good. That may work with heavy gain music where you basically are burying the quality of a great resonant guitar behind a barrage of high distortion, but when it comes down to clean to lower gain stuff, where you're emulating the sound of the guys that first brought the Les Paul to attention, that's where you hear the difference. As Big Al said he's been in rooms where people have AB'd genuine 50's Gibsons to new custom shop Gibsons and the new ones didn't give up a thing to the vintage. I've heard it myself, and I agree. And you keep on bringing money into the equation. I don't know if you've looked at what a used Tokai top of the line instrument is selling for, but they are no longer the bargains you profess them to be. The last three Historics that I bought were all easy to find in the same price range, especially if you consider many times you will have to change out the pickups in the Japanese replicas. And all my historics are bone stock other than a mojoaxe tailpiece on my R4 that was on the guitar when I bought it, and set of steel tailpiece studs in my R0 that were given to me as a gift. And since 2013-2014, I think Gibson stepped up their quality, and returned to some build features, that made buying a Japanese knockoff that could compete near impossible. You may prefer the replicas and that is totally legit, especially if you find they work for what you do. I will also agree there were dark eras in both Gibson and Fenders history and the Japanese quality lit a fire under their asses to get them back on track.

But no matter what level of Japanese "Les Paul Replica" they don't for me, so we will never agree.

These guitars I haven't had to turn a screw on, and I'm a serial modder, so that's saying something!

rockabilly69 said:

First off I don't have a chip on my shoulder.

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well it FEELS like you're trying to pick a fight

I also think you should refer to any replica of a Les Paul by any name other than LES PAUL

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like Band-Aid or Kleenex, Les Paul is a ubiquitous term.

you posting in the historic Gibson section to spout your opinion was distasteful to say the least

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It's not "distasteful" and the thread is ABOUT a tokai

I don't even refer to my Heritage guitars as Les Pauls and mine were built by some of the same guys that made the originals, with nice lacquer finishes, eastern maple tops, and Honduran mahogany backs and necks.

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well that's all a matter of taste, I guess. I personally don't give a damn about finished or wood (within reason of course).

But Les Pauls are my favorite guitars, and I've yet to hear a replica that would change my opinion of that.

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I feel the opposite. I've yet to play any gibson that exceeds anything replica makers have put out

That may work with heavy gain music where you basically are burying the quality of a great resonant guitar behind a barrage of high distortion, but when it comes down to clean to lower gain stuff, where you're emulating the sound of the guys that first brought the Les Paul to attention, that's where you hear the difference.

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It works with all music. distortion doesn't delete EQ curves or bury anything. in fact it literally AMPLIFIES them.

As Big Al said he's been in rooms where people have AB'd genuine 50's Gibsons to new custom shop Gibsons and the new ones didn't give up a thing to the vintage. I've heard it myself, and I agree.

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there's no accounting for taste.

And you keep on bringing money into the equation. I don't know if you've looked at what a used Tokai top of the line instrument is selling for, but they are no longer the bargains you profess them to be.

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Some are, that's the point. What does $800 get you in a Gibson? Because $800 bought me a 76 Greco Custom.

especially if you consider many times you will have to change out the pickups in the Japanese replicas

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I've never had to change anything on any of the japanese les paul's I've owned.

And since 2013-2014, I think Gibson stepped up their quality

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that's great, now if only they could fix their pricing/marketing structure, they'd be a company worth giving my business to

and returned to some build features, that made buying a Japanese knockoff that could compete near impossible.

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I hate to tell you this, but they are identical dude. The only difference between an edwards and a gibson is what the inlay on the headstock is. that's why gibson had to sue them. If Gibsons were truly different and superior, no lawsuit would have been required, economically for practically.

I hate to tell you this, but they are identical dude. The only difference between an edwards and a gibson is what the inlay on the headstock is. that's why gibson had to sue them. If Gibsons were truly different and superior, no lawsuit would have been required, economically for practically.

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is this for real ??? ..man o man I wish I knew this long ago :dude:

renderit said:

Dude!

Is this your Lambo?

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incorrect analogy. Let me give you one more suited to the situation.

If you bought a lambo, and you took the badge off and put a [insert other car brand] badge on it, it would still be a lambo right?

Woah, bro. Your cunning refusal to like adapt the system and instead use your super pragmatic brain thoughts to refuse to spend more money than you think necessary on guitars is totally sacrosanct in my book.

Do you have a newsletter I could subscribe to?

deytookerjaabs said:

Woah, bro. Your cunning refusal to like adapt the system and instead use your super pragmatic brain thoughts to refuse to spend more money than you think necessary on guitars is totally sacrosanct in my book.

Do you have a newsletter I could subscribe to?

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some of us have to work for a living.

Buying gibsons is a gamble for me, a pricey one. not worth it for me

greg-delta said:

some of us have to work for a living.

Buying gibsons is a gamble for me, a pricey one. not worth it for me

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Good for you. There are billions who bust their ass 14+ hours a day 29 days a month who likely feel your Greco is simply a show of exorbitant funds, consider yourself lucky.

rockabilly69 said:

Oh you mean the champion of good taste in guitars.... the one who plays these...

http://legacy.gibson.com/news-lifestyle/features/en-us/sheepskinandrhinestone.aspx

I wonder if that's Brazilian Sheepskin?

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Those furry “explorers” were made by Dean!

Wilko said:

Those furry “explorers” were made by Dean!

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Yes I know, just thought it was funny!