Cloud 9 LP

Unmensch said:

I might have to wait for one to pop up used. I don't think I want to spend the full MAP on a new Gibson. Besides, with only 3 dealers carrying them, a lot will be bought sight unseen. You know someone is going to buy one and decide after 48 hours that it isn't for them.

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Sound reasoning. For most of us, used is the only way we'll get one that we can try out first.

Zhangliqun said:

in my opinion you're not greedy because as far as I know you are not doing anything immoral, illegal or unethical.
Dunno man..hey is selling crack illegal ( just kidding )


It's not about greed. Socialism doesn't work because it refuses to recognize excellence, even punishes it. You get the same pay, rewards, benefits, recognition wehther you work 80 hours a week with amazing efficiency and creativity and initiative or you just lay about. Socialism doesn't work because it is extremely demoralizing.

That sounds EXACTLY like my last job! Do you know my ex-boss Fidel?


1) I don't know if Gibson is greedy or not, at least by my definition above. I'm only saying that you can't measure greed in terms of dollars and cents or profit margins, only in terms of moral behavior. Again I have to ask you what your definition of "greed" is -- does it differ from mine? If so, how? And if you can't tell us what you mean by "greed", then how do you expect us to understand you?

Ok Zhan..this is where we tango. So I looked it up in the american heritage dictionary ( Yes..for those who were unsure..I have one )
Good try on the inmoral, unethical and what have-you arguments but... It's a good thing that it's just your opinion.

So here it goes

1) Excessively desirous of acquiring or possessing, especially wishing to possess more than what one needs or deserves.
2) Wanting to eat or drink more than one can reasonably consume; gluttonous ( Ha!! I knew that fat guy who smokes cubans was greedy!!!) and
3) Extremely eager or desirous; greedy for the opt. to prove their ability

So what I'm drawing from all this is that anyone who, for example, has more than the guitar needed as the "main" and a "backup" ..let alone a room full of them like I do will def. fall into the "greedy" category!
2) Another term that begs a definition: "Price-gouging."


I didn't look that one up but just after Hurricane Andrew I was driving along affected neighborhoods to bring supplies ( I own a respiratory company ) and I saw people selling bottled water out of their trucks for 10.00 a gallon. That left a disturbing view for me. You may be right in assuming that my definition may be a little different than others, if not out of line when discribing guitars that mostly rich yuppies buy.

3) That depends entirely on the quality of the guitar. Second, the hand-made Historics are not "production" guitars. In this Forum, "production" guitar means the Gibson USA line like the Les Paul Standard, Studio, etc. The R-series Historics are NOT "production" guitars.

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Like a 1959 Les Paul? I think everyone knows that most historic parts, electronics, etc are assembly line stuff! Seth is dead, man! Do they separate the woods..take a little more time..even hand carve them? I'm sure they are not the same production line as a Sammick but even then, they are a still production model. Not unique at all but for a few exceptions ( Murphys come to mind )
But really nice to play and cool looking, too! :2zone

Zhangliqun said:

Second, the hand-made Historics are not "production" guitars. In this Forum, "production" guitar means the Gibson USA line like the Les Paul Standard, Studio, etc. The R-series Historics are NOT "production" guitars.

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Beg to differ:

Historics ARE production guitars, they're made on a different production facility than the Standards and have some hand finishing but they are NOT hand made guitars. No guitar that is produced by an active company in lots of say larger than 3 is hand made. In fact even the heavilly customized single number examples from the Custom Art division wouldn't qualify as hand made guitars.

Hand made guitars are made one at a time by one person (or at most a small team) usually to fulfil a specific order. Try to place an order with Gibsons Historic division that can't be conceived of as a combination of standard specs and see how far you'll get with it.



....and for the umpteenth time.

The Cloud 9 is NOT sold as a Historic, it's a Custom Shop guitar, it has a Custom Shop serial number. I don't see where these arguments are coming from.

John Catto said:

....and for the umpteenth time.

The Cloud 9 is NOT sold as a Historic, it's a Custom Shop guitar, it has a Custom Shop serial number. I don't see where these arguments are coming from.

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It seems so easy to understand.

John Catto said:

Beg to differ:

Historics ARE production guitars, they're made on a different production facility than the Standards and have some hand finishing but they are NOT hand made guitars. No guitar that is produced by an active company in lots of say larger than 3 is hand made. In fact even the heavilly customized single number examples from the Custom Art division wouldn't qualify as hand made guitars.

I agree. This isn't a special item anymore. Maybe back in the day when Leos and Guitar trader models but not now.

Hand made guitars are made one at a time by one person (or at most a small team) usually to fulfil a specific order. Try to place an order with Gibsons Historic division that can't be conceived of as a combination of standard specs and see how far you'll get with it.

But even with all the restrictions you will get charged more than any hand made luthier could ever dream of charging, because it's an original Gibson. Certainly not the best made or best components..just another well made production guitar.
Hence my opinion that they are charging far more than they should.

....and for the umpteenth time.

The Cloud 9 is NOT sold as a Historic, it's a Custom Shop guitar, it has a Custom Shop serial number. I don't see where these arguments are coming from.

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Well, here is where our opinions differ for the umpteenth and one time! If you click on the very first post ( yes, it seems like years now ) then look at the guitars, heres what they are calling one:

Gibson Custom Cloud 9 '59 Reissue Les Paul :nay

59 Reissue?? I think that is the source of the pimple in LPF posters butts about it, cause it ain't no reissue . Though I wouldn't mind getting my paws on one! :2zone

wait wait wait... whats the difference between an r7 and r9!?!??!




hehe :-D changing the topic is sweeeeeeeeeeeet

tom wu said:

Well, here is where our opinions differ for the umpteenth and one time! If you click on the very first post ( yes, it seems like years now ) then look at the guitars, heres what they are calling one:

Gibson Custom Cloud 9 '59 Reissue Les Paul :nay

59 Reissue?? I think that is the source of the pimple in LPF posters butts about it, cause it ain't no reissue . Though I wouldn't mind getting my paws on one! :2zone

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Well maybe I'll stick my nose in here and explain it plainly the way I understand it. Cloud 9's are Custom Shop guitars. They make Cloud 9 versions of R4's, R6's, R7 Goldtops, R7 Customs, R8's, and R9's. I don't see why you're so confused. They're lightweight chambered versions of Historic Collection guitars. Are they true historics? No, they're modified; that's why they're Custom Shop. Damn, I don't know any other way to repeat myself so I'll stop. :yay

tom wu said:

That sounds EXACTLY like my last job! Do you know my ex-boss Fidel?

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I do, though not personally. I assume you don't like him very much or you wouldn't be in Florida. All the more reason you should be with me on this.

tom wu said:

Ok Zhan..this is where we tango. So I looked it up in the american heritage dictionary ( Yes..for those who were unsure..I have one )
Good try on the inmoral, unethical and what have-you arguments but... It's a good thing that it's just your opinion.

So here it goes

1) Excessively desirous of acquiring or possessing, especially wishing to possess more than what one needs or deserves.
2) Wanting to eat or drink more than one can reasonably consume; gluttonous ( Ha!! I knew that fat guy who smokes cubans was greedy!!!) and
3) Extremely eager or desirous; greedy for the opt. to prove their ability

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This is indeed where we tango. I'll lead. The word and "deserves" just DRIPS with moral subtext. You're only making my case for me. "Excessively" is a relative term but becomes anchored to morality in the context of "deserves". In order to be right about this, you have to say that greed isn't a moral problem.

tom wu said:

So what I'm drawing from all this is that anyone who, for example, has more than the guitar needed as the "main" and a "backup" ..let alone a room full of them like I do will def. fall into the "greedy" category!

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Not if you need a wide variety of tones -- some people really do need a Strat and a Tele and an LP and a 335 and an acoustic, etc. Some, like me, also need a bass...

In fairness to you though, this line between needed tools of the trade and greed -- though a bit blurry due to each player's needs for his gigs -- does probably get crossed at some point before you reach 100 guitars...

tom wu said:

I didn't look that one up (price-gouging) but just after Hurricane Andrew I was driving along affected neighborhoods to bring supplies ( I own a respiratory company ) and I saw people selling bottled water out of their trucks for 10.00 a gallon. That left a disturbing view for me. You may be right in assuming that my definition may be a little different than others, if not out of line when discribing guitars that mostly rich yuppies buy.

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Water is a different story, my man. No water, you die. No R9, you'll probably muddle through. (If you took a truck full of R9's out there at that time, I doubt there would have been any takers at half the price.) As a man who considers himself answerable to his Maker, if I lived in South Florida I would have been the one in the other truck giving bottled water away for free. There does come a time when the profit-motive has to be shoved aside in favor of giving away some of your profits, and the days following Hurricane Andrew would qualify.

***

And Mr. Catto:

You've been in here probably as long as I have. I'm keenly aware that Historics are not ENTIRELY handmade. But do we or do we not refer to the Gibson USA axes as "production" Les Pauls?

Zhangliqun said:

And Mr. Catto:

You've been in here probably as long as I have. I'm keenly aware that Historics are not ENTIRELY handmade. But do we or do we not refer to the Gibson USA axes as "production" Les Pauls?

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a long time

and yes we do refer to standards and so on as "production" Les Pauls

my disagreement was purely with the use of the expression "hand made" since guitars from the Custom/Historic/Art lines don't really match this definition. Just semantics really.

Gibson Custom Cloud 9 '59 Reissue Les Paul

59 Reissue?? I think that is the source of the pimple in LPF posters butts about it, cause it ain't no reissue . Though I wouldn't mind getting my

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If it's the word "Reissue" that's bothering you, than what about the Les Paul Classic? This Gibson USA "production" guitar is sold as the...wait for it..."1960 Reissue". Sez so right the the pickguard. Does that mean Gibson claims a Classic is a Historic? No, it does not.

Perfect example! Go check out some guitar stores and see if the people who sell them aren't referring to them as "historics" from time to time. :welcome
What bothers me about those guitars are the snot-green inlays, the word "classic" on the headstock, the "1960" numbers on the pickguard and it's ceramic pickups. Other than that, I'm sure they are fine guitars with misleading advertisement. ..Kinda like the Cloud 9s..a little.:dude
That's been my point.."change aword here..add a little inuendo there..."whoila! another big money guitar.
And by the way, I may be reaching here but I'm guessing that anyone that, fooled by the whole "1960 reissue" bought one thinking it's some kinda custom shop historic model, ( to find out later what really is ) will probably tell you it bothers them too. :2zone

tom wu said:

What bothers me about those guitars are the snot-green inlays, the word "classic" on the headstock, the "1960" numbers on the pickguard and it's ceramic pickups.

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I'm with you there, particularly the inlays and the pickguard, though the "Classic" on the headstock doesn't bother me.

Classics are pretty under-rated though. And they do or at least did have the ABR bridge. Just snag a new pickguard and either some covered or zebra pickups of your choice and it's a really fine guitar. I had a honeyburst once that was EXTREMELY cool...