52 headstock veneer, 1968 'white' BB

dlcjr · Jan 19, 2004

Well, I have to say that what's been discussed here has certainly got me thinking. I am still not entirely convinced of the "no old wood" theory, but I'm not as convinced of the "definitely old wood" theory as I was just a few days ago. Certainly some of the things that I had viewed as supporting evidence for old wood were not supported by the examples presented here.

dlcjr · Jan 19, 2004

wilko
"...by the time we had that (Les Paul production) started, CMI wanted 100 a month of the goldtop and 25 a month of the custom, and before we were finished we were making a hundred Les Pauls a day"
Stan Rendell, president, Gibson.

I used to see the corporate guys say things like this all the time, and it's not that it's wrong, it's just that it's misleading. The 100 a month number for the goldtop would put them right on track to have made in the neighborhood of 500 of these in 68, since production didn't start until after namm.
As for the 100 les pauls a day thing. One might assume that he meant that they were making 100 a day, every day. But often when the corporate guys say things like this they are quoting their high production figure.
So what this means is, by the time that they were done (end of 68? norlin buyout? kalamazoo closing?) they could produce their 100 units in a single day.

I remember your post that the 500 order was complete by 90 days after it was placed. So, maybe by early october there were 500 made? How many more than this do you think were done in 68? The first 500 would have been enough to put at least one or two in every major metropolitan area in the us by christmas. If they did 1500 of them, these things would have been all over the place, it seems to me. And I just don't see that many of them.

As a modern example,
the nashville plant often boasted of making over 300 units a day in the mid 90's when I was there. Although it has happened, I can tell you that it didn't happen every day, or even very often.

325-at-2pm · Jan 19, 2004

dlcjr replied:

Certainly some of the things that I had viewed as supporting evidence for old wood were not supported by the examples presented here.

After seeing that my guitar with the very thin 3rd maple layer had back routing similar to a 1950s LP, I was hoping and cheering for the grain to be running (as per your theory) North to South on that thin piece of wood.

I was really pumped up when I discovered that I could nip out a piece of that thin maple layer from the bridge pickup cavity. To my disappointment, the grain was running East to West.

I still wouldn't be surprised if someone could prove that a cache of thick mahogany planks were laying around the stock bins when the first few batches of 1968s were conceived. A limited amount of old wood and possibly some old parts wouldn't be totally out of the question. Certainly LIMITED.

dlcjr · Jan 19, 2004

Wilko
"I still belive that the guitar that formed much of dlcjr's opinions was a 1972-ish 58 reissue withe stop tail."

Of the guitars that I have personally owned, this one did sit at the root of a lot of my understanding of the guitars of this period. I went through the guitar very thoroughly during the time that I owned it. I did originally Identify it as being from the 58 reissue run, but it had features that I don't believe are consistent with that run.
1) 'square' wiring channel
2) late 67/early68 serial number stamped into the peghead
3) no made in usa
4) 68 style long tenon
etc..

I used to think it was an early 58 reissue. The information I had on those showed them to have first been a cataloged model in 71. But, converations I had with certain individuals who would know, assured me that guitars with this set of specs were being produced before the model was cataloged. The lack of a made in usa stamp would put it in 69 or before, even if the serial number turned out to be a red herring.
It had other things about it that were not normal for the time.
Even if I still had the guitar I'm not sure it would be possible to nail down why it was such an oddball.
Because it was the earliest of the reissue goldtops that I had, I did assume that it's very 50's features were more common to these early 68 guitars than they have since turned out to be.

Bluejazz · Jan 19, 2004

Forgetting about '50's wood for a minute....

Is there anything noteworthy about the mahogany or maple purchased and treated in 1968 and 1969? Was it simply new wood, kiln dried? Was the Honduran Mahogany still coming from Honduras then?

dlcjr · Jan 19, 2004

If I had to hazard a guess about what this guitar was now, I'd think it was a custom order. There do seem to be a reasonable number of these known from this period (5-10 guitars).

GUITARGASM · Jan 19, 2004

If anyone cares, here is some info: my white 68 custom is 521XXX and shipped out 11-8-68, but was probably built much earlier, (maybe even in 67?) since others' 68's have much higher numbers, but shipped months earlier than mine.

L.P. #531700, a custom, shipped out 12-28-68

531701 ( a B-25) shipped on 1-3-69

531702
531703
531704 all customs, shipped Jan 3-6, 1969

531705 which I just purchased, shipped 1-6-69. It has all the 68 features and the Gibson guy thought that it and all the above ones were certainly built in '68.

That's the longest straight run of Custom serial numbers I've seen.

Thanks for all the incredible interest in and response to my first post as an LPF member!

325-at-2pm · Jan 20, 2004

The "project" guitar that I have provided a picture link to this thread a few pages back, and which has the 3rd layer, center seam top, neo-50s back side routing, etc., has a serial number of:

542019

Don't know the ship date, but if you can get it fast.....go for it and post it here for me!

GUITARGASM · Jan 21, 2004

542019

Don't know the ship date, but if you can get it fast.....go for it and post it here for me! [/B]

That serial number is on a big blank page. Sorry . some of them are that way; the best thing for you now is to find a close number below and one above yours and try to get the ship dates on those. I was lucky with mine so far, all I called on had a date listed.

zorglub! · Jan 29, 2004

Hello everyone,

I have something curious for you guys:

+ Serial number: 907277
+ Square wire channel (height 2cms, width 1,5cms)
+ 3 piece maple top
+ 3 piece mahogany neck
+ Sandwich body
+ Narrow binding
+ Extra maple layer between maple top and mahogany body.
+ No "i" dot in Gibson logo
+ "b" and "o" open in Gibson logo
+ No "Made in USA"

!!!???

GUITARGASM · Jan 29, 2004

zorglub! said:
Hello everyone,

I have something curious for you guys:

+ Serial number: 907277
+ Square wire channel (height 2cms, width 1,5cms)
+ 3 piece maple top
+ 3 piece mahogany neck
+ Sandwich body
+ Narrow binding
+ Extra maple layer between maple top and mahogany body.
+ No "i" dot in Gibson logo
+ "b" and "o" open in Gibson logo
+ No "Made in USA"

!!!???

68 serial number, 68, 69 and 70's features(with the 3 piece top).
Is it Standard, Custom or Deluxe? what color?

This mystery guitar is obviously a rare example of how the old masters at Gibson were explaining to a new apprentice how the company worked; they simply made a guitar with features from all the current ways of making Les Pauls in a transition period, explaining that this would one day confusticate would-be owners and collectors in the dim dark days of a future century.

325-at-2pm · Jan 29, 2004

1968 Spec guitars into 1969.

GUITARGASM:

By the looks of the serial numbers that you posted for early January 1969, and by factoring in my slightly higher serial number without a logged ship date but with similar features, I think one scenario may be:

The 2 piece tops and 1 piece necks on LP Customs probably ended some time in the first quarter of 1969.......

What do you think?

zorglub! · Jan 29, 2004

Mistery guitar...

GUITARGASM said:
Is it Standard, Custom or Deluxe? what color?

Sorry, I forgot... it's a Custom Ebony.

GUITARGASM · Jan 29, 2004

Re: 1968 Spec guitars into 1969.

325-at-2pm said:
GUITARGASM:

I think one scenario may be:

The 2 piece tops and 1 piece necks on LP Customs probably ended some time in the first quarter of 1969.......

What do you think?

Makes sense, but I'll bet we could find some late 2 piece if more people chimed in; here's one for you... this week I got a 68 custom with a ONE piece top! Rest assured, I'm not gonna refin it black!

Zinc Alloy · Jan 29, 2004

GUITARGASM said:
0KAY FELLAS, ON MY WHITE 68 CUSTOM UNDER CLOSE INSPECTION I CAN CLEARLY SEE THE EXTRA THIN LAYER OF MAPLE, IN THE CUTAWAY. That makes 2; who else?

I now suspect that it would be present on the 69 too if I could see under the wider binding....

Yes, I can see it in the control cavity of my late 69. It's extremely hard to capture on a photo. I took some shots of the cavity lately, but it's impossible to make out.

Wilko · Jan 29, 2004

Re: Mistery guitar...

zorglub! said:
Sorry, I forgot... it's a Custom Ebony.

Most of the customs from that era have narrow binding in the cutaway.
the extra maple with a sandwich is intersting. That number is very likely from 1970. (per lists published everywhere)

Zinc Alloy · Jan 29, 2004

maybe they widened the binding to hide the extra layer of maple?

Wilko · Jan 29, 2004

The binding got wide because they started to use a machine that cut from one depth all around the body. Much faster than having a person follow the body contour with a colleted router.
That extra layer is not on that many guitars, and on the early 70's "58 Standard" they used thin binding and put an extra layer.

52 headstock veneer, 1968 'white' BB

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