Kluson 3x3 strip tuner bushing/grommet differences (Jr vs Specials)

buyusfear · Dec 4, 2020

I've been trying to find an answer to this and can't.

Does anyone know why the Kluson 3x3 strip tuners came with, what I'll call simpler/cheaper stamped ferrule/bushings on singlecut and double cut Junior models; but, on Specials they had the fancier cast ferrules/bushings?

68a7716d-7927-5b74-a91d-9738ea6f8430__79779.1550277797.jpg

VBT-Nov-19-LP-59-DoubleCutaway-Headstock-20@1400x1050.jpg

They both have the brass post and peg machineheads (which if i'm not mistaken was used across all 3 on a plate tuners at Gibson, be it lap steel, or electric) but in this case the bushings differ?

Guitar Whiskey · Dec 5, 2020

i'd assume it was economics. Did the base material of the tuner posts have a sonic impact on the Jr. and Specials compared to the Std or Custom models?

fernieite · Dec 5, 2020

I'd assume it was a cosmetic/ upgrade decision. The Special had a pearl logo and 2 ply trussrod cover as well...

sws1 · Dec 5, 2020

fernieite said:
I'd assume it was a cosmetic/ upgrade decision. The Special had a pearl logo and 2 ply trussrod cover as well...

Bingo. If they were willing to save a nickel by putting on a cheaper, small plastic part, I'm sure they were willing to put on a slightly cheaper tuner too.

buyusfear · Dec 5, 2020

I don’t disagree with the cost savings/economic guesses. It’s the easiest assumption for sure.
It just seems almost overkill to source identical tuners, but specify slightly less expensive bushings. Like what was the savings even by 1950’s prices?

My other thought was, perhaps being a slightly fancier model; pearl logo, Holly, neck binding, two ply truss rod cover etc... did they go out of their way to source/request the “better” bushings from Kluson as a way of dressing up an otherwise cost cutting measure that is going with the strip tuners. Was there even a cost difference to a large customer like Gibson between strip and individual tuners?

garywright · Dec 5, 2020

I’ve seen chrome tuner posts as well

DANELECTRO · Dec 5, 2020

The Junior bushings are simply off-the-shelf drawn sheet brass grommets. The same type as used on tarps, fabrics, etc. Certainly cheaper than the standard bushings which were machined from bar-stock on a screw machine. The Junior was a $139 guitar, so they were trying to save cost wherever possible.

buyusfear · Dec 6, 2020

DANELECTRO said:
The Junior bushings are simply off-the-shelf drawn sheet brass grommets. The same type as used on tarps, fabrics, etc. Certainly cheaper than the standard bushings which were machined from bar-stock on a screw machine. The Junior was a $139 guitar, so they were trying to save cost wherever possible.

Thanks Dan.
It’s crazy to think how little their labour was valued at back then. Crazy that grommets, or shorter tailpiece anchors, a decal logo vs pearl, Etc, was enough to pad their margins.

marshall1987 · Dec 9, 2020

DANELECTRO said:
The Junior bushings are simply off-the-shelf drawn sheet brass grommets. The same type as used on tarps, fabrics, etc. Certainly cheaper than the standard bushings which were machined from bar-stock on a screw machine. The Junior was a $139 guitar, so they were trying to save cost wherever possible.

Yep....agree with all that too.

Nonetheless, as inexpensive as the '50s LP Juniors were, they were not cheap or inferior products. Although marketed as "student" guitars, Les Paul Juniors were constructed from the same seasoned Honduran Mahogany & Brazilian rosewood found on the more expensive Les Paul models. Plus the workmanship, fit & finish, and attention to detail were indistinguishable from the professional models in the catalog.

I have a well-cared-for, single-cut 1958 Les Paul Junior ....and can say unequivocally that, after a pro-refret & PLEK w/ medium-jumbo fret wire, has one of the best playing necks of any Gibson guitar I have ever owned. If blindfolded, you would have difficulty distinguishing it from a "Holy Grail", sunburst 1958 Les Paul Standard. :dude:

marshall1987 · Dec 9, 2020

buyusfear said:
Thanks Dan.
It’s crazy to think how little their labour was valued at back then. Crazy that grommets, or shorter tailpiece anchors, a decal logo vs pearl, Etc, was enough to pad their margins.

On Les Paul Juniors the Gibson logo and Les Paul script are not decals. They are both silkscreened, then clear-coat of lacquer is sprayed over.

buyusfear · Dec 9, 2020

marshall1987 said:
On Les Paul Juniors the Gibson logo and Les Paul script are not decals. They are both silkscreened, then clear-coat of lacquer is sprayed over.

Sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree with you on this.
The Les Paul script was silk screened on top of the finish as we all know.
The Jr’s Gibson logos however, while likely silk screened as a way of being printed, were in fact decals of some sort on a transfer paper, like the Fender logo, but unlike that logo these were then lacquered over.

This is the case, as you can see on many examples (which I’ll post in a bit if I have a second) a defining perimeter around the logo, (as if cut out from a transfer sheet). I even have photos of two decals stacked on top of eachother.

Semantics, but that’s why we’re here.

And to your previous point, I don’t think anyone is disagreeing with you that Jrs and specials weren’t made every bit as good as their carved top siblings. At least I don’t think Dan was implying that in his post. Just that cost savings was a factor and tuber bushings was one of the many ways they achieved that on those models.

Having worked on many 50’s Les Pauls, and built my own, the only area where these “student” models lack is in some lower cost hardware, and maybe a quicker/sloppier sunburst than usual.
Otherwise, IMO, they’re one of the best bargains going in the vintage guitar world.

The fact that an Esquire/black guard tele command more dollars today, than a Junior, DC Jr, or Special from that same era is whats messed up with us guitarists to be honest. (Nothing against Fenders, love ‘em. But c’mon guitar world!

marshall1987 · Dec 10, 2020

buyusfear said:
Sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree with you on this.
The Les Paul script was silk screened on top of the finish as we all know.
The Jr’s Gibson logos however, while likely silk screened as a way of being printed, were in fact decals of some sort on a transfer paper, like the Fender logo, but unlike that logo these were then lacquered over.

This is the case, as you can see on many examples (which I’ll post in a bit if I have a second) a defining perimeter around the logo, (as if cut out from a transfer sheet). I even have photos of two decals stacked on top of eachother.

Semantics, but that’s why we’re here.

Thanks, I had always believed the Gibson logo was silkscreened. My naked-eye must be playing tricks on me! :##

So is it possible the Gibson logo is produced by applying silkscreened paint over the plastic decal? In other words, how are the Gibson letters applied to the decal?

Thanks. :dude:

sws1 · Dec 10, 2020

You can see the waterslide outline here

You can see the nitro over the waterslide here...glowing green under blacklight...with the Junior logo applied on top of the nitro.

buyusfear · Dec 10, 2020

DANELECTRO said:
The Junior bushings are simply off-the-shelf drawn sheet brass grommets. The same type as used on tarps, fabrics, etc. Certainly cheaper than the standard bushings which were machined from bar-stock on a screw machine. The Junior was a $139 guitar, so they were trying to save cost wherever possible.

So, re-quoting this theory because, looking at my '55 SJ, it has the cheaper grommets.
Seeing as how this was considered a fancier version of the J45, why not use nicer grommets?

marshall1987 · Dec 13, 2020

So then is the Gibson logo on the vintage '50s LP Juniors essentially a silkscreened decal made by applying gold paint to the plastic backing? Thanks. :2cool

Kluson 3x3 strip tuner bushing/grommet differences (Jr vs Specials)

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